Welfare outrage

[Cyclonesrule91]

So if this makes sense how about we subsidize Pizza Hut? Does it make sense to take $4 of my tax money so that my pizza will cost $3 less?

So if we stopped the subsidy payments what would happen?- Prices would go up.

Would it end up costing me more than what I pay in taxes ? If so how does that math work?


Would some small farms go out of business?-Probably. Just like 75% of all restaurants fail in the first 5 years. It's called a small business

Pizza Hut ingredients.....

Meats are fed grain
crust is made of dough mixed from grains
cheese comes from milk from cows fed grains
tomato's grown on farms(not so familiar with the subsidy on them)

I have no idea how to do the math on if subsidies cost us more as taxpayers then the money we save on food. But some simple math on meat production.

feeding a pig from birth to 275 lbs will use around 12 bushel of corn if I remember correctly. If when you slaughter that hog you get around 200 lbs of meat and corn goes from $2/bu to $4/bu it adds a whopping $.13/lb to the meat price.

And comparing restaraunts to farming is not really feasible. If a restaraunt goes broke, then we go somewhere else, if farming becomes unprofitable because we americans don't want high priced food, we become an Ethiopia(sp) type of a situation pretty quickly and then it's our kids who are on the commercials in other countrys with the flies all over them and nothing but skin and bone....:sad9cd:

 

[joepublic]

Food would still be grown without any subsidies. Farm subsidies get capitalized into land prices and rent. The price of land (and rents) would adjust. That Americans should have to subsidize Iowa row crop production because agriculture drives the national economy is pure nonsense. No doubt there would be some adjustment - growing to meet the demands of the marketplace instead of government - but talk about misinformation.

I know it will never happen because of the politics, but could free markets work in American agriculture? I just don't understand why this specific business deserves government protection.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

I know it will never happen because of the politics, but could free markets work in American agriculture? I just don't understand why this specific business deserves government protection.

To insure a low cost food supply is why.

 

[joepublic]

To insure a low cost food supply is why.

Can't market do that? Why not?

 

[94Heritage]

Iowa ranked no1 in cattle production in 1973 now we are 8 so I don;t think ethanol drove out the cattle bussiness.
Lets talk sports Go cubs!!!

 

[Clone83]

I know it will never happen because of the politics, but could free markets work in American agriculture? I just don't understand why this specific business deserves government protection.

Absolutely.

The idea that agriculture drives the entire economy (which is a separate from whether to subsidize it) is a misconception dating back to Thomas Jefferson, and before him, to the French predecessors to Adam Smith – who Smith learned a lot from his visit to France but who Jefferson was unduly beholden to.

Whether corn prices - in the long run - would be higher or lower than they are now without any subsidies is an empirical question, that any forecast is almost certain to miss. Too many factors are in play. There is a lot of land currently held in the Conservation Reserve Program, for example, that could be brought into production. The direction we are headed is that much of this will be brought into production to meet the federal ethanol mandate.

I wouldn't have any problem with this if it was driven by market prices (e.g., the market-determined price of corn relative to the price of oil), but I do have a problem when it is accomplished by government fiat. Everyone pays for this, directly, or through lower economic growth than would have occured had the government not intervened.

 

[Clone83]

Iowa ranked no1 in cattle production in 1973 now we are 8 so I don;t think ethanol drove out the cattle bussiness.

Well, then, ethanol will help keep it out.

Like prior federal farm programs, ethanol mandates without a doubt create an incentive to farm marginal land (e.g., the conservation reserve) instead of using it for cattle production.

 

[dmclone]

Pizza Hut ingredients.....
And comparing restaraunts to farming is not really feasible. If a restaraunt goes broke, then we go somewhere else, if farming becomes unprofitable because we americans don't want high priced food, we become an Ethiopia(sp) type of a situation pretty quickly and then it's our kids who are on the commercials in other countrys with the flies all over them and nothing but skin and bone....:sad9cd:

I sure hope your kidding.

Of course Americans don't want high priced food. We also don't want high priced beer, football tickets, TV's, health care, etc. If farming becomes unprofitable in the U.S. (doubtful) then we import those products just like we import thousands of other products.

I know it's tough pill to swallow but this is a global economy. Workers have to constantly be learning new skills to compete. Farming should be no different. If a farmer can't make enough money farming than he/she will have to learn a trade.

I've heard the same thing about the Big 3 for the last 20 years. Yes, we have less manufacturing jobs but I don't if that is necessarily a bad thing. People adjust and learn new skills. The truth is that we have a worker shortage.

 

[twojman]

I was wrong previously, they are still trying to pass the registration change. Sounds like the politicians are being gutless once again. They are not going to do what is right.

Sioux City Journal: Raising pickup license fees stuck in park

 

[CYdTracked]

All I know is I don't know of too many rich farmers. Considering a new combine costs about $250,000, tractors depending on the size at least 2-3 times or more than a car costs, and all the other equipment, fuel, repairs, implements, storage, fertilizer, chemicals, etc. that goes into farming it's not a very big profit margin and you have to almost farm on a large scale these days to really make any money from it. The average small farmer that our parents and grandparents had in their days are starting to become fewer because you can't support a family on the same ammount of acres anymore. This isn't even factoring in if you have livestock the costs of feed, vaccinations, etc. that comes with that as well. And the weather has a direct impact on ability to turn a profit as well. It's not like most of us that can show up to work and we get paid a set rate regardless.

I grew up on a small farm where we basically were more "hobby" considering we raised about 25 head of cattle on 100 acres of mostly pasture and hay fields. It was not our main source of income and if it was we would have never made it. Just that small bit of farming we did do was enough to make you realize just how tough farming can get. In order to make any kind of living of it you have to have a big operation and with that you either have to have a big family that farms together or take on the added costs of hired work.

So when it comes to anything related to farmer benefits, I have no issue with them and they probably don't even get enough breaks at times. Not familar with this particular story enough to make an educated stance on it though.

 

[jdolson]

Who are we going to get to meet our food needs??? 3/4 of the world can barley feed its self.... Jeez, sure we can outsource our automobiles and dvd players, but to rely on a country like say CHINA to ship us food? Heck they are poisioning their own people. I have spent sometime overseas, the countries that have a strong and healthy agricultural economy are generally the most sucsessful.

As far as the whole pickup license goes, I agree if you aren't engaged in farming, the fee should go up.

 

[Cyphor]

Ethanal is a bad Idea, especially corn based production. It takes almost as much fuel to grow the corn as the fuel produced by the corn. Not to mention all kinds of environmentally harmful chemicals.

Ethanal is a product of our overproduction of corn. We are swimming in corn because we don't grow anything else (ok soy beans). We have to invent new uses for it such as ethanl, just so we can do something with it. Anyone who has read the omnivores dilemma will know what I'm taking about. Corn is in everything we eat, wear, clean with etc... we're drowning in it.

We need biodiversity which means the government needs to stop handing out huge checks for mass corn growers, hog lot etc. It is destroying this state, and ruining our quality of food and ultimately our health. Oh yea and the small time farmer also gets shat on.

 

[jbhtexas]

I know it will never happen because of the politics, but could free markets work in American agriculture? I just don't understand why this specific business deserves government protection.

Most other countries heavily subsidize agriculture. In order for free markets to work, we would need to persuade the rest of the world to stop subsidizing their agricultural industries. That could be done by just banning imports from those subsidizing countries for things that can be grown here, like wheat, other grains, cattle, pork, etc.

Then, break out your wallets...you think fuel prices are high...

You'd be suprised at "what" and "how much" of various ag products are imported into the US...

 

[Clone83]

I also grew up on a farm, and it is possible I had more and more different farm work experiences by age 20 than anyone on this board. There is no reason to believe food will not be grown in the United States without subsidies – especially Iowa.

Besides the fact I see no reason for government to be picking winners and losers in this regard, it appears to me that a related psychology of government dependency has sunk deeply into the thinking the state’s entire political leadership. The interventionist and protectionist ideas of Herbert Hoover and Henry A. Wallace continue to define the economic thinking of effectively the entire state.

To the state's own detriment, Iowa politicians continue to make decisions as if such ideas haven’t long since been discredited.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

I sure hope your kidding.

If farming becomes unprofitable in the U.S. (doubtful) then we import those products just like we import thousands of other products.

I know it's tough pill to swallow but this is a global economy. Workers have to constantly be learning new skills to compete. Farming should be no different. If a farmer can't make enough money farming than he/she will have to learn a trade.

I sure hope your kidding.

Just where on earth do you plan on importing as much grain as it takes us to operate and feed everyone. Right now we export to many countries as it is and China is on the verge of becoming a corn importer vs. exporter they are now. I don't know all the commodities but in corn we are growing almost 93 million acres this year and we have 64.5 million acres of soybeans. If we match trend yield of 149 bu/acre on corn that is 13.85 billion bushel. Compare that to the rest of the world who combined raise another 110 million acres. This year with world usage, US demand and everything figured in, we are projected to have 1.5 billion bushel leftover at the end of the fiscal year. If we decide it isn't economically feasible to row crop farm in the US, how will you import corn from the rest of the world when the combined world other then the US only grows 17 million acres more then we do now?????

And to just put the exclamation point on this issue. This year the US planted 93 million acres and will harvest 88 million acres(drowned outs, burned up acres, etc) and we will on the average get 149 bu/acre for a total of 13.85 bill bu. Compare that with these numbers. China will harvest 68 million acres and get a trend yield of 85 bu/acre or 5.8 billion bu. Brazil will harvest 36 million acres and get 57 bu/acre or 2.05 billion bushels. Argentina will harvest 10 million acres and get 120 bu/acre yield or 1.2 billion bushels. We have the technology and know how to get good production so we product 13.85 bill bu and the rest of the world produces under 10 billion.

We are THE main producer of corn in the world which is why Agriculture makes the economy of a nation as strong as anything. This example just pertains to corn. I could paint the same argument for soybeans(but not to this extent) as well.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

Ethanal is a bad Idea, especially corn based production. It takes almost as much fuel to grow the corn as the fuel produced by the corn. Not to mention all kinds of environmentally harmful chemicals.

And what environmentally harmful chemicals would you be referring to? Corn goes in and ethanol(alcohol) comes out with DDG's(fed back to hogs and cattle), and CO2......that's it. Maybe you are thinking of MTB or whatever it was that was banned in CA for contaminating groundwater but ethanol companies actuall De-Nature ethanol by mixing in a certain percentage of gasoline otherwise nothing harmfull. It cleans your fuel injectors and engines as they burn it too.

Man, is it ever going to stop????:baffled5wh::rofl8yi:

 

[Clone83]

You're right, Cyclonesrule91. The United States would continue to grow plenty of food even without all the subsidies. The ridiculous quote dmclone cited in his post was a strawman.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

You're right, Cyclonesrule91. The United States would continue to grow plenty of food even without all the subsidies. The ridiculous quote dmclone cited in his post was a strawman.

Hey, I've got to type something to get me to 1,000 posts.....:biggrin9gp:

 

[dmclone]

I sure hope your kidding.

Just where on earth do you plan on importing as much grain as it takes us to operate and feed everyone. Right now we export to many countries as it is and China is on the verge of becoming a corn importer vs. exporter they are now. I don't know all the commodities but in corn we are growing almost 93 million acres this year and we have 64.5 million acres of soybeans. If we match trend yield of 149 bu/acre on corn that is 13.85 billion bushel. Compare that to the rest of the world who combined raise another 110 million acres. This year with world usage, US demand and everything figured in, we are projected to have 1.5 billion bushel leftover at the end of the fiscal year. If we decide it isn't economically feasible to row crop farm in the US, how will you import corn from the rest of the world when the combined world other then the US only grows 17 million acres more then we do now?????

And to just put the exclamation point on this issue. This year the US planted 93 million acres and will harvest 88 million acres(drowned outs, burned up acres, etc) and we will on the average get 149 bu/acre for a total of 13.85 bill bu. Compare that with these numbers. China will harvest 68 million acres and get a trend yield of 85 bu/acre or 5.8 billion bu. Brazil will harvest 36 million acres and get 57 bu/acre or 2.05 billion bushels. Argentina will harvest 10 million acres and get 120 bu/acre yield or 1.2 billion bushels. We have the technology and know how to get good production so we product 13.85 bill bu and the rest of the world produces under 10 billion.

We are THE main producer of corn in the world which is why Agriculture makes the economy of a nation as strong as anything. This example just pertains to corn. I could paint the same argument for soybeans(but not to this extent) as well.

I'm a little confused.
It sounds like you know what you're talking about when it comes to demand which just goes on to prove my point. If there is that much demand for our precious crops then prices will remain high and farmers will be rolling in money. There should be no reason to import.



Tell me again why my tax dollars are funding farmers when there is such high demand for corn?

 

[dmclone]

Found this.

"How Washington will spend your taxes in 2006"

Agriculture: $235/per houshould. Despite rhetoric about supporting small family farms, the vast majority of farm subsidies are distributed to large farms with average household incomes over $135,000.


I don't know where you live but in my neighborhood $135,000/year is pretty decent money.

Plus you only have to pay $65 for your license.:biggrin9gp: