Steve Prohm

[Tre4ISU]

I can’t speak for everyone but I saw the extensions as CPR bad. Other people not seeing that the guy wasn’t coaching up players is not my problem. Like I already said before. Before it was obvious the extensions were understandable but after Fred’s guys left and the guy still didn’t have some thing that resembled an offense people should of been questioning them.

He had a top 10 offense last year and he has the 28th ranked offense this year with a team that can't shoot. Offense isn't the issue. I wouldn't care about the defense so much if he wasn't trying to coach it. Since he is, it's clear he has no idea what he's doing.

He likely needs to go the Beilein route and completely clean house on the bench and start over with a guy who solely handles defense.

Also...teach one ball screen defense and get really good at it. Quit switching it.

 

[MeowingCows]

As a stringent Prohm backer, I'm shook. Let's see how the season plays out but Tuesday night was awful. The worrisome part isn't the lose in itself. Weird **** happens. The worrisome part is it wasn't flukey.

This team will win more games, Haliburton's presence alone allows for that. We'll see what happens during conference play, but I'm not personally convinced this is an up-year for the Big 12, either. Could be wrong there, certainly.

Tuesday's game was a strange culmination of many problems coming at once. Once again, subpar shooting day from the guards. All three post players underachieved in different ways, and offensive sets with them were often unproductive or led to turnovers. Apparently we don't have a backup PG without Haliburton 'cuz the other guards struggled to consistently run the ball without him. The best lineup and set we ran was at the end of the guard with the 4 guards and weave up-top that led to points and didn't lead to turnovers, but at that time, FAMU was making every single shot they threw up, including multiple one-armed fall-away prayers. Game flow/timeout management was also poor I thought.

The whole thing was messed up in so many ways, and I'm sure the players were hurting. I felt especially bad for Bolton after his last turnover at the end of the game. He was the only reason we were even in the game at all, he dropped a 30-bomb out there and it still wasn't enough. We almost certainly would've won the game with Hali playing, if for no other reason than the fact that he wouldn't have turned the ball over nearly as much, but the drop-off without him out there was absolutely painful to watch.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Using stats from Fred's first year at Nebraska is laughable. He dumped that whole team. Fred is trying to rebuild a historic dumpster fire over there. His stats at ISU speak for themselves. His defense was better than prohms and trending upward over his last few years. take out the first year here where he was full rebuild mode with McDermott scraps and it isn't even close between the 2 coaches.

1.) Looking at Hoiberg’s first year at NU to what would have been a mature program at ISU is bad. Shame on you.

2.) Right, but any conversation about Hoiberg at ISU now, requires a different Hoiberg. Do you not realize the fundamentals of conversation you joined or the basics of a thought experiment? Who mentioned Prohm? Is he on Hoiberg’s staff in this hypothetical? Also, bringing up valid criticisms of Prohm has NEVER been about Hoiberg, but rather where the program was headed under Prohm. Perhaps now you finally will see that. You continue to resort to Hoiberg vs Prohm, which has you increasingly fabricating what Hoiberg’s future would have been based on delusion and irrelevant metrics.

3.) See my previous comment.

4.) There is no actual evidence to suggest it wouldn’t have gotten better, which was contended earlier in the thread. The fact someone said without “evidence” is why I responded with plausible reasons why it could have. The trend was there as Hoiberg stocked his roster with better athletes. And it didn’t need to be substantially different. A modest difference would have been big in terms of impact. Hoiberg improving and adding flexible athletes like Nader, Burton, NWB, and posts like McKay is just as much evidence that the defense would have taken another step, as madcity has to suggest it would not have changed.

5.) Of course it matters. What’s overblown is how bad it was. Hoiberg, for not caring about it as some claim, was better at defense than most realize.

A few points --

---

I think you guys missed the point of me bringing up Nebraska. The point is --

Hoiberg teams have never been good at defense. His Cyclone teams were not, his Bulls teams were not, and his Cornhusker team is not. You said he could have potentially or possibly "got good" at defense, but you have a coach who has never put a good defense squad on the floor. Sometimes you are what you are, and considering your point is things would have changed, then I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that things might have changed, rather than just assuming they would.

---

Fred is long gone and not coming back. Prohm has a black mark on his record now that speaks for itself. You do not need Fred or a hypothetical, optimized Fred who (1.) committed to college coaching and coaching Iowa State, (2.) really committed to bringing in some elite high school and prep talent, (3.) continued to own the transfer market, (4.) kept the offense rolling yet created a competent defense to go with it, and (5.) then essentially replaced Kansas as the dominant program in the Big 12 Conference.

We can debate if all that would have happened under a longer Fred regime. I mostly doubt it, but it is a moot point now. Prohm is digging his own grave.

---

I agree with you the problem with this season is it lacks those 2-4 rangy wings (e.g., Burton, Nader, etc.). Prohm's roster construction this season... very little shooting and no modern swingmen, just small guards and centers... is troubling.

Those kind of 3&D guys are highly in demand, though. Lewis and Griffin match the physical profile, but they are just not very good players. I hope we can hold onto Dubar and Blackwell and they are good when they arrive on campus. I doubt Pollard does anything for the next 1.5 seasons, so we just have to hope those guys work out for now.

 

[cyclone4L]

As a stringent Prohm backer, I'm shook. Let's see how the season plays out but Tuesday night was awful. The worrisome part isn't the lose in itself. Weird **** happens. The worrisome part is it wasn't flukey.

I always root for my team. I always wants them to do well and win. I always want coaches to figure it out and succeed.

I started to think negatively about coach Prohm last season. With keeping WIgginton out of the starting 5, not playing Conditt more and not being able to control his team half the time. I started to lose faith in his decision-making (or lack there of).

Measuring a coach on his wins and losses doesn't paint the picture of how good he is as a coach. At some point, we have to measure his success by what he produces out of what he has.

 

[CyPunch]

Conditt alongside a competent 4 would be incredible.

We just lack the 4 man.

And 4 man, I mean a rangy wing, not a second post.

We had a bevy of those last year in Shayok, THT, and NWB.

We got nothin' this year.

This. We have Tyrese who kind of has it all at the guard spot but then our other guards - Jackson, Nixon, Bolton, Grill are all undersized coupled with poor shooting. We really lack the tweener big wings/stretch 4 types since Zion and Terrence simply haven't been good enough. The 3 bigs are all adequate but they don't offer much if any versatility positionally and playing two of them together has been a failure.

I'd like to see a starting 5 of Haliburton, Nixon, Bolton, Terrence, and Conditt going forward. That's a major change though (but after Tuesday we're probably at that point) and it might be more realistic to see Conditt inserted for one of the two bigs and hopefully see more 1 big lineups throughout the game.

 

[Sigmapolis]

This. We have Tyrese who kind of has it all at the guard spot but then our other guards - Jackson, Nixon, Bolton, Grill are all undersized coupled with poor shooting. We really lack the tweener big wings/stretch 4 types since Zion and Terrence simply haven't been good enough. The 3 bigs are all adequate but they don't offer much if any versatility positionally and playing two of them together has been a failure.

I'd like to see a starting 5 of Haliburton, Nixon, Bolton, Terrence, and Conditt going forward. That's a major change though (but after Tuesday we're probably at that point) and it might be more realistic to see Conditt inserted for one of the two bigs and hopefully see more 1 big lineups throughout the game.

This is one of the best posts of this basketball season.

The team has talent, but the roster construction is so awkward. A team of small guards who cannot shoot and a bunch of centers is not modern basketball. That was basketbrawl in the 90s, so unless you are a bunch of mean bulldogs, it will not work.

We might as well start trying stuff. It is not that likely to work, but what the heck, what we are doing right now is not exactly producing results.

 

[jbindm]

As a stringent Prohm backer, I'm shook. Let's see how the season plays out but Tuesday night was awful. The worrisome part isn't the lose in itself. Weird **** happens. The worrisome part is it wasn't flukey.

I don't know. I had hoped that the Iowa loss would be the low point this season but then FAMU happened. Where is rock bottom with this group? And once they hit it, how far back up can they realistically go? I'm starting to think that even with Haliburton healthy and in the lineup they're at best a middle of the pack team in the Big 12.

I'm in wait and see mode, but the early returns on the 19-20 Cyclones are not good.

 

[FinalFourCy]

Sometimes you are what you are, and considering your point is things would have changed, then I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that things might have changed, rather than just assuming they would.
L-.

The burden of proof started with madguy’s contention it wouldn’t have gotten better. It was getting generally better, and there’s nothing tangible to say it wouldn’t have continued. First year at NU stats and NBA stuff? If that’s all you have, you’re just on a smear campaign.

And now the burden is on you. I would hope you’d be familiar enough with logic structure to know that your claim that something in 2020 will be the same as 2015 has just as much burden of proof. You’ve yet to prove the axiom that “you are what you are” is true, or even more, what is Hoiberg? Roster construct can easily move a team from top-60 to top-30. Given the small sample of rosters, and the recruiting challenge he inherited, there’s just as huge of burden to claiming it wouldn’t have continued to trend towards improving as there is to saying it would be static.

It’s likely Hoiberg wasn’t a finished product at ISU. But perhaps everything is static like you suggest. Perhaps the defense would be the same in Year 10 as Year 5, but if that’s your logic, no wonder you’re blindsided by FAMU. How can we be bad at defense when Prohm had a season in the top-50? Things don’t change and are what they are!

 

[Statefan10]

I don't know. I had hoped that the Iowa loss would be the low point this season but then FAMU happened. Where is rock bottom with this group? And once they hit it, how far back up can they realistically go? I'm starting to think that even with Haliburton healthy and in the lineup they're at best a middle of the pack team in the Big 12.

I'm in wait and see mode, but the early returns on the 19-20 Cyclones are not good.

A middle of the pack Big 12 team without their best player should not lose to that FAMU team. The margin of victory should have been 10-15 points. That team was horrific and we looked worse than them. Unless something changes drastically via coaching strategy, or we miraculously start making shots and playing better, we are looking at a last place finish in the conference.

 

[Cyientist]

I'm a Prohm backer, but I'm noticing my list of excuses for him is getting similar in length to the end Rhoads' era.

I still think there is something there, but at this level you have to be able to overcome the obstacles because they will always be there. Multiple top 10 road wins, getting commitments from players like THT and Wigginton, and getting more from guys like Nader and Burton are reasons that I'm on board.

 

[Statefan10]

The burden of proof started with madguy’s contention it wouldn’t have gotten better. It was getting generally better, and there’s nothing tangible to say it wouldn’t have continued. First year at NU stats and NBA stuff? If that’s all you have, you’re just on a smear campaign.

And now the burden is on you. I would hope you’d be familiar enough with logic structure to know that your claim that something in 2020 will be the same as 2015 has just as much burden of proof. You’ve yet to prove the axiom that “you are what you are” is true, or even more, what is Hoiberg?

It’s likely Hoiberg wasn’t a finished product at ISU. But perhaps everything is static like you suggest. Perhaps the defense would be the same in Year 10 as Year 5, but if that’s your logic, no wonder you’re blindsided by FAMU. How can we be bad at defense when Prohm had a season in the top-50? Things don’t change and are what they are!

The fact of the matter is Coach Prohm doesn't know what kind of coach he wants to be.. Want to be a defensive team? Then get players who are extremely solid on defense and figure out how to score enough points offensively. Want to be an offensive team like Hoiberg? Then get players who can shoot well from the outside and run an offense that brings out the best in your team. We're neither this year.

 

[ThatllDoCy]

I'm not holding him accountable for Shayok's streakiness. I'm holding him accountable for relying on Shayok's streakiness.

That’s fair.

 

[jbindm]

A middle of the pack Big 12 team without their best player should not lose to that FAMU team. The margin of victory should have been 10-15 points. That team was horrific and we looked worse than them. Unless something changes drastically via coaching strategy, or we miraculously start making shots and playing better, we are looking at a last place finish in the conference.

Yeah, that's why I put the emphasis on at best. If what they put out there against Iowa and FAMU was anything close to what we should expect as the new normal then it's a guaranteed last place finish in the conference.

 

[ThatllDoCy]

Sorry but Jacobsen needs to play 10 mins a game as a rest for Conditt or Young. He's not an upgrade in any area over those two.

This is a fact.

 

[Sigmapolis]

The burden of proof started with madguy’s contention it wouldn’t have gotten better. It was getting generally better, and there’s nothing tangible to say it wouldn’t have continued. First year at NU stats and NBA stuff? If that’s all you have, you’re just on a smear campaign.

And now the burden is on you. I would hope you’d be familiar enough with logic structure to know that your claim that something in 2020 will be the same as 2015 has just as much burden of proof. You’ve yet to prove the axiom that “you are what you are” is true, or even more, what is Hoiberg?

It’s likely Hoiberg wasn’t a finished product at ISU. But perhaps everything is static like you suggest. Perhaps the defense would be the same in Year 10 as Year 5, but if that’s your logic, no wonder you’re blindsided by FAMU. How can we be bad at defense when Prohm had a season in the top-50? Things don’t change and are what they are!

We were all blindsided by FAMU. If you were so sure about it beforehand, then you should be rolling in cash after breaking the house in Las Vegas.

I doubt you are doing that, so we will continue.

I knew/know this team had problems, and we all know them. They cannot shoot yet keep jacking shots, they are "playing big" but not dominating the boards, Haliburton has to do everything, and big moments (the Iowa game) intimidate them. We could probably keep going, but this roster construction is inherently awkward.

The notion they might win 4-6 games in the Big 12 was not/is not utterly shocking to me. I would have predicted a little higher and was taking a "wait and see" approach when there was plenty of basketball left to be played, but I saw those problems, too. They still might surprise us even after that debacle, or they might suck.

The suck case definitely got a lot stronger after Iowa and FAMU.

I think you are still missing the point on Fred -- you say he was a "young coach" (somewhat true, hold that thought) that might have learned more or committed more to defense in the future. That might have been the case, but Fred Hoiberg has been a head coach at one level or another for almost a decade now. It is not 2012. We have a track record.

I doubt Fred never improves much on defense because being dominant on offense was part of his shtick, his brand, and his philosophy, the same way the Air Raid is for Leach and those on his coaching tree (all the way to Lincoln Riley). Fred recruited guys who could shoot and score first and foremost, he coached them to do more of the same, and his game plans favored outscoring people instead of trying to stop them.

You can say he might have changed. I say, after a decade, he is who he is. It is an entire mindset or philosophy of basketball.

 

[ThatllDoCy]

I can see him injecting Conditt into the starting lineup or something, but late game situations etc. won't be any different.

I can’t. Prohm is too resistant to change, or stubborn.

 

[brokenloginagain]

i never consider myself a doom and gloom, fire the coach, perma bear kind of fan...but I'm probably more pessimistic than many in this thread.

I'm worried we're a 1-2 conf win team this year, finishing DFL 2 out of 3 years.

I don't think our talent is anywhere near good enough (we're fans, we always overvalue our own teams' talent, I get it).

but when you struggle to shoot, rebound, and defend, I just don't see how we figure this out in the next few weeks.

can't believe losing to iowa by 20 at home, losing to a kenpom +300 team at home, and I think things are going to get worse. ugh.

 

[MeowingCows]

I'm a Prohm backer, but I'm noticing my list of excuses for him is getting similar in length to the end Rhoads' era.

I still think there is something there, but at this level you have to be able to overcome the obstacles because they will always be there. Multiple top 10 road wins, getting commitments from players like THT and Wigginton, and getting more from guys like Nader and Burton are reasons that I'm on board.

The Rhoads comparisons are largely invalid solely due to Prohm's list of accomplishments already being much longer than Rhoads's ever was. That's simply not the position our basketball program is in. There are some reasonable and recent defenses for Prohm. There was basically none for Rhoads past about 2014 or so.

 

[Statefan10]

Yeah, that's why I put the emphasis on at best. If what they put out there against Iowa and FAMU was anything close to what we should expect as the new normal then it's a guaranteed last place finish in the conference.

I'm going to be putting a lot of stock into this year as far as judging Prohm. There is still quite a bit of talent on this roster, however I don't think they're doing some of the things that they're talented at. There is still a lot of season left and a lot of games left to be played. It's up to Coach Prohm to find a way for this team to succeed. If he can figure out a way for that to happen and have this team around the bubble by the time the Big 12 tournament comes around, that'd be a win for Coach Prohm. If we end up throwing in the towel and the coaches / team start looking ahead for next year, I will be incredibly disappointed.

 

[madguy30]

The fact of the matter is Coach Prohm doesn't know what kind of coach he wants to be.. Want to be a defensive team? Then get players who are extremely solid on defense and figure out how to score enough points offensively. Want to be an offensive team like Hoiberg? Then get players who can shoot well from the outside and run an offense that brings out the best in your team. We're neither this year.

Seems like it's always kind of been that way. Trying to play multiple ways without being all that reliable in one way.

Last year's offense was really good but it was also streaky and at times ended up with players kind of all trying to do the same thing.