Jarvis West Fumble

IcSyU

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2007
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Rochester, MN
I don't understand how people are struggling to comprehend what 3TrueFans is staying because he's right on the money.

1. Ball arrives
2. Process of tackling immediately begins after arrival...no football move is made therefore possession must be maintained through the ground
3. Ball is taken away by defender and therefore possession has not been maintained through the ground
4. Play is ruled correctly as an interception

Had the defender jarred the ball loose and it fell to the turf it would be an incomplete pass because possession wasn't maintained through the ground (AKA until you stand up/toss the ball to the official/etc.)
 
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CyCloned

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Oct 18, 2006
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The play happened very fast and I can see both arguments. The key to me is what constitutes a football move, because if taking half a step and then being driven to the ground is a football move than the "special rule" would not apply and Jarvis would be down when his knee touches. Time to move on.
 

3TrueFans

Just a Happily Married Man
Sep 10, 2009
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The question isn't as much about the rule as it is about did he have control when his knee hit the ground. From your post you are saying you don't believe he did.
He had possession when his knee hit the ground, that doesn't complete the catch and rule the play dead in this case. Since he was going to ground while attempting to make the catch he has to maintain control the entire time, not just until his knee hits.

The rule states that if the ground causes him to lose control, it's an incomplete pass if the ball touches the ground or a completion or interception if he or the opposing player gets control before the ball touches the ground. But, the rule explicitly states the ground causing the loss of control and does not discuss another player causing the loss of control.
The rule does not specify that it has to be the ground that causes the loss of control, show me where you think it does that. It says the receiver has to maintain continuous control throughout the process of contacting the ground. So through the whole process of him going to ground he has to demonstrate complete control, he doesn't do that because as soon as his knee hits the ball is taken away. The rule doesn't care if it's the ground or a helmet or a defender that causes him to lose control.

What I believe you are stating is that in the split second that his knee touched the ground he did not have control. And that my friend is a judgement call and not a rules interpretation. And, for the record, I will accept your judgement, as it's yours and no one elses.
That's not what I'm saying. He caught the ball while going to the ground, he has it while his knee hits as pictures have shown, but before he can complete the process of catching the ball the defender takes it away from him and completes the interception.
 

ManBearClone

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Apr 29, 2010
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This is just amazing. This rule comes into effect practically every game in some fashion not necessarily resulting in an interception but instead an incompletion without much fanfare. It has eliminated 99% of the gray area on completion calls yet some are still struggling with the concept.

It really is as simple as this if Jarvis has the ball goes to his knees with the ball and proceeds to fall on the ground and the ball squirts lose it is an incompletion. If you can't except that then you are hopeless. If you can except that then substitute KSU player for ground. The ball comes lose KSU player has it and demonstrates he has it. Interception.
 

PKT13

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Jun 18, 2014
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This is just amazing. This rule comes into effect practically every game in some fashion not necessarily resulting in an interception but instead an incompletion without much fanfare. It has eliminated 99% of the gray area on completion calls yet some are still struggling with the concept.

It really is as simple as this if Jarvis has the ball goes to his knees with the ball and proceeds to fall on the ground and the ball squirts lose it is an incompletion. If you can't except that then you are hopeless. If you can except that then substitute KSU player for ground. The ball comes lose KSU player has it and demonstrates he has it. Interception.

Yeah, but, what if he had done a Bo Jackson Tecmobowl thing and run around the field a couple times before he went to his knees and then he handed the ball over to the ref, and the KSU guy took it from the ref, then it would clearly or not clearly be a catch/fumble something, according to the uninterpreted interpretation of the rule.
 

ManBearClone

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Apr 29, 2010
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Yeah, but, what if he had done a Bo Jackson Tecmobowl thing and run around the field a couple times before he went to his knees and then he handed the ball over to the ref, and the KSU guy took it from the ref, then it would clearly or not clearly be a catch/fumble something, according to the uninterpreted interpretation of the rule.

Depends. Is Bo Jackson playing for ISU or KSU?

edit: Oops KSU then incomplete.
 

dmthornt

Member
Oct 4, 2012
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The entire rule as copied from the NCAA 2013/2014 rule book. At least the discussion has generally reverted back to the judgment call of did he have possession when he contacted the ground and not how many points of a persons body has to be on the ground before it's a completion.

As stated, if in the process of going to his knees the ball popped lose and fell to the ground, it's an incomplete pass (the ball was dislodged by the contact with the ground). Likewise, if in the process of going to and contacting the ground, the ball is stripped, it an interception (As the defensive guy received and maintained possession through the catch and the contact with the ground). But, if he catches the ball, goes to the ground and maintains possession after contacting the ground (maintaining possession is generally considered long enough to perform a football maneuver, such as running or handing off to another - he doesn't have to do a football maneuver, but it's that length of time) then it's a completed pass. If the ball is stripped after that time, then then the stripping of the ball was conducted after the player was down and it was a completed pass and offense retains possession of the ball. The only question here is really, did Jarvis have possession after he contacted the ground long enough for it to be considered a completed pass. The officials said no and the replay officials said they did not have enough evidence to overturn the call, but you make your own decision.

Catch, Interception, Recovery
ARTICLE 3. a. To catch a ball means that a player:
1. Secures control of a live ball in flight with his hands or arms before
the ball touches the ground, and
2. Touches the ground in bounds with any part of his body, and then
3. Maintains control of the ball long enough to enable him to perform
an act common to the game, i.e., long enough to pitch or hand the ball,
advance it, avoid or ward off an opponent, etc., and
4. Satisfies paragraphs b, c, and d below.
b. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without
contact by an opponent) he must maintain complete and continuous control
of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the
field of play or in the end zone. This is also required for a player attempting
to make a catch at the sideline and going to the ground out of bounds. If
he loses control of the ball which then touches the ground before he regains
control, it is not a catch. If he regains control inbounds prior to the ball
touching the ground it is a catch.
c. If the player loses control of the ball while simultaneously touching the
ground with any part of his body, or if there is doubt that the acts were
simultaneous, it is not a catch. If a player has control of the ball, a slight
movement of the ball, even if it touches the ground, will not be considered
loss of possession; he must lose control of the ball in order for there to be
a loss of possession.
d. If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control and continues
to maintain control, and the elements above are satisfied, it is a catch.
e. An interception is a catch of an opponent’s pass or fumble.
f. A catch by any kneeling or prone inbounds player is a completion or
interception (Rules 7-3-6 and 7).
g. A player recovers a ball if he fulfills the criteria in paragraphs a, b, c, and d
for catching a ball that is still alive after hitting the ground.
h. When in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed.
Simultaneous Catch or Recovery
ARTICLE 4. A simultaneous catch or recovery is a catch or recovery in which
there is joint possession of a live ball by opposing players inbounds (A.R. 7-3-
6-I-II).
 

jkclone

Well-Known Member
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Jan 21, 2013
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I will say this Mangino doesn't seem to think it should have been an interception. In the interview yesterday when he talks about it he says a called interception. That leads me to believe that he doesn't think it was a legitimate interception otherwise he would have simply said we had an interception.

Now most I think would agree Mangino is one of the better offensive minds in football so it isn't like he doesn't know what he is talking about.
 

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