Good lesson for all from Penn State

[Clone9]

Oh how easy it would be to live in a world of black and white.

Nobody is saying Paterno wasn't wrong in things he did and didn't do. But these situations are not as easy as some people make them out to be. And the lack of realization about this is one of our major problems as a society and justice system in regards to pedophilia.

One of the major problems with society is that there are people like Sandusky, and that there are people that not only do nothing to stop them, but even facilitate them by putting them in a situation where they has easy access to children.

You're right, the world is not black and white. But this case is. Molesting children is wrong. There are no situations where that is ok - it is black and white. And, if you see it happening, you should do something about it. There are no situations where it is ok to not do anything about it. That, to me, is also black and white. If the powers that be do nothing about it, then you do something yourself. Especially if you are Joe-freaking-Paterno, who (let's face it) was the real boss at Penn St. If nothing else, he should have fired that guy immediately and not let him have direct access to children anymore. What they did is unforgivable.

 

[Cyclone06]

One of the major problems with society is that there are people like Sandusky, and that there are people that not only do nothing to stop them, but even facilitate them by putting them in a situation where they has easy access to children.

You're right, the world is not black and white. But this case is. Molesting children is wrong. There are no situations where that is ok - it is black and white. And, if you see it happening, you should do something about it. There are no situations where it is ok to not do anything about it. That, to me, is also black and white. If the powers that be do nothing about it, then you do something yourself. Especially if you are Joe-freaking-Paterno, who (let's face it) was the real boss at Penn St. If nothing else, he should have fired that guy immediately and not let him have direct access to children anymore. What they did is unforgivable.

Ah yes hello police? This is Joe Paterno. I have been told of something that is disturbing and I feel necessary to make you aware. I have not witnessed this myself, but what I was told is nothing to take lightly. Please understand that I wish to be a "confidential" source should this be something you will need to act upon, however like I said I feel it necessary to let you know what I heard and the manner I heard it.

Had this happened in 2001 the Penn State imagine, after a nasty black eye, would have healed and became stronger than ever. Instead, we are now trying to determine the extent of the wound and if there is even life left.

 

[HGPuck]

One of the major problems with society is that there are people like Sandusky, and that there are people that not only do nothing to stop them, but even facilitate them by putting them in a situation where they has easy access to children.

You're right, the world is not black and white. But this case is. Molesting children is wrong. There are no situations where that is ok - it is black and white. And, if you see it happening, you should do something about it. There are no situations where it is ok to not do anything about it. That, to me, is also black and white. If the powers that be do nothing about it, then you do something yourself. Especially if you are Joe-freaking-Paterno, who (let's face it) was the real boss at Penn St. If nothing else, he should have fired that guy immediately and not let him have direct access to children anymore. What they did is unforgivable.

What Sandusky did is definitively wrong (there is no gray), but nobody here or anywhere really is debating that. The problem as I see it is that people see what Paterno did or didn't do along with a lot of other people at Penn St as black and white. If someone in Paterno's situation knows some form of law enforcement is investigating, is that enough? No probably not, but the actions he should take aren't as black and white as people make them out to be. When we shut down and just say they are wrong lets punish them then we start ignoring the problems. In situations like this there are not black and white appropriate reactions. In retrospect there are always a laundry list of things that could or should have been done.

To be clear I do not think Paterno and other higher ups at Penn St handled this correctly and I do think they did wrong. But its also naive to think that in any way this is some isolated case involving fundamentally bad people that surround a sick person and that it doesn't happen time and time again in relation to stopping pedophilia.

 

[Senolcyc]

Do the right thing?

Not exactly a ground breaking concept.

 

[HGPuck]

One other tidbit I find interesting but certainly not the most important thing, Sandusky was relieved of his duties in relation to the Penn St football program in 1999. Nobody will even know for sure why that happened, if I remember correctly it was called a 'retirement' at the time. It is possible and maybe even probable that he was forced out by Paterno or others at Penn St because of the 1998 accusations. If that was the case it was probably only to try and save face for the program if the allegations did prove to be true. But it was definitely an action and not all that far from the 'firing' that people now seem be calling for.

The fact that he was still allowed to use university facilities and the later attempts to suppress things or save face are certainly reprehensible however.

 

[Clone9]

What Sandusky did is definitively wrong (there is no gray), but nobody here or anywhere really is debating that. The problem as I see it is that people see what Paterno did or didn't do along with a lot of other people at Penn St as black and white. If someone in Paterno's situation knows some form of law enforcement is investigating, is that enough? No probably not, but the actions he should take aren't as black and white as people make them out to be. When we shut down and just say they are wrong lets punish them then we start ignoring the problems. In situations like this there are not black and white appropriate reactions. In retrospect there are always a laundry list of things that could or should have been done.

To be clear I do not think Paterno and other higher ups at Penn St handled this correctly and I do think they did wrong. But its also naive to think that in any way this is some isolated case involving fundamentally bad people that surround a sick person and that it doesn't happen time and time again in relation to stopping pedophilia.

This form of "ignoring the problem" is far better than literally ignoring the problem and allowing many more children to be molested.

Sorry, but I'll never agree with you on this. First, you stop it from happening again. Then, you get to the root of the problem. JoePa and the rest at Penn St never even stopped it from happening. In fact, they facilitated it. THAT is ignoring the problem.

 

[Clonefan94]

Remember that JoePa was this guy's boss, and despite the Penn State signs, those were JoePa's facilities.

Even if he didn't believe that JS was capable of abusing the boys, at a minimum he knew that JS was showering with underage boys in the PSU facilities. That alone puts PSU at risk of getting sued by someone who makes a claim, true or not (in this case, sadly true). So even if no charges were filed, the leader is responsible for correcting any action that could put the employer at risk of a lawsuit.


Bare minimum: "Hey Jer, can you come into my office? Thanks, I'm going to shut the door. Let's talk...it has come to my attention that you were showering with one of the 2nd mile kids in the locker room, and that there was at best 'horseplay' and at worst, inappropriate contact between you and the child. Let me be clear on this...it is unacceptable for you to shower with an underage person in the Penn State University facilities, because it puts the university at risk of a lawsuit. If you are ever again naked in a room with an underage person, you will be terminated. I cannot allow the university to be subject to legal action."

Personally, I would add "and if you're ever found to be abusing children, after I fire your ***, I will follow you to the parking lot, gut you and hang your entrails from the statue of me that's right outside." but maybe that's going too far.

This is the way I see it. I understand chain of command, but weather or not you want to believe it, I think a good cousre of action for Paterno may have been, "Yeah, Jer, I believe what you say, I've known you, I don't think you are doing anything wrong either, but don't you think we should stop the showering with the boys part? I mean yeah, yeah I know nothing is going on in there, but still, maybe a good idea to let the boys shower on their own and you use the coaches facilty to shower?"

There are just certain common sense things you would stop if this were an issue. And imo, if these were false accusations, Sandusky would have said from the beginning as well, "It might not be a good idea for me to shower with boys with these questions coming up."

 

[HGPuck]

This form of "ignoring the problem" is far better than literally ignoring the problem and allowing many more children to be molested.

Sorry, but I'll never agree with you on this. First, you stop it from happening again. Then, you get to the root of the problem. JoePa and the rest at Penn St never even stopped it from happening. In fact, they facilitated it. THAT is ignoring the problem.

I think you probably don't understand what I'm saying and I perhaps don't understand what you're saying.

The problem I have is that to just say they did nothing is not true. They did things both good and bad. Trying to understand why they took the actions they did is the important part to me, because cases like this happen all too often.

People who receive second hand accounts are in very difficult situations with our legal system, whether people want to admit it or not. If people witness pedophilia first hand it becomes much more cut and dry, you stop the present situation from happening then do everything you can to get that person arrested and ultimately so they can't do it again. That much we certainly agree on.

Edit: Perhaps I found the source of my or our confusion. When I was talking about 'shutting down and just saying they are wrong and lets punish them' I was referring to the general perception against Paterno and everyone else at Penn St right now but was not talking about Sandusky himself. What Paterno and co. did was not right certainly, but to just condemn them in a definitive manner is what I have issue with.

 

[Cyclonepride]

I agree with everything you said except about the NCAA enforcing it. The schools have to enforce this, they are the only ones that can. I'm thinking the football program at Alabama is pretty highly valued these days and Saban could be the most powerful person on that campus. Should the NCAA go in and smack them with some penalties now just to put them in their place? The school needs to be the one who keeps the football program from running the entire school.

In a perfect world, the remaining leadership, along with alumni, would voluntarily shutter their football program for 2-3 years as an act of contrition, and I would greatly respect their decision to do so. In fact, it's about the only thing that could salvage some respect for their institution. But I'm not holding my breath, and if they don't do it voluntarily, either the NCAA or conference should drop the hammer on them.

 

[Cyched]

The end of 'Joe Paterno University' - CNN.com

 

[LivntheCyLife]

Remember that JoePa was this guy's boss, and despite the Penn State signs, those were JoePa's facilities.

Even if he didn't believe that JS was capable of abusing the boys, at a minimum he knew that JS was showering with underage boys in the PSU facilities. That alone puts PSU at risk of getting sued by someone who makes a claim, true or not (in this case, sadly true). So even if no charges were filed, the leader is responsible for correcting any action that could put the employer at risk of a lawsuit.


Bare minimum: "Hey Jer, can you come into my office? Thanks, I'm going to shut the door. Let's talk...it has come to my attention that you were showering with one of the 2nd mile kids in the locker room, and that there was at best 'horseplay' and at worst, inappropriate contact between you and the child. Let me be clear on this...it is unacceptable for you to shower with an underage person in the Penn State University facilities, because it puts the university at risk of a lawsuit. If you are ever again naked in a room with an underage person, you will be terminated. I cannot allow the university to be subject to legal action."

Personally, I would add "and if you're ever found to be abusing children, after I fire your ***, I will follow you to the parking lot, gut you and hang your entrails from the statue of me that's right outside." but maybe that's going too far.

But that sounds an awful lot like the more "humane" solution we've heard about. And more just protecting the institution. There's no guarantee that firing somebody and not giving them access to facilities is going to prevent there from being future victims.

The only point I'm trying to make is I'm seeing what I think is too much desire to say Penn State was the problem. Pedophilia is the problem. I bet there were at least 20 people that should have done something to stop Sandusky. And I bet there were many more that could have done something. Yet, almost everybody I see posting says they wouldn't be one of those people. They're not a part of that messed up culture at Penn State. And maybe I'd believe it if I thought child sex abuse was rare and/or adequately reported when it happens. But the stats say otherwise.

 

[letsCYber]

Here's another suggestion
-Don't rape little boys in the shower, and don't cover it up

That is about the only lesson you can learn from this fiasco.

I still think it was just some clean horsing around.

 

[SCarolinaCy]

Here's another suggestion
-Don't rape little boys in the shower, and don't cover it up

That is about the only lesson you can learn from this fiasco.

And, don't hire an ISU alum to be your school president.................

 

[00clone]

But that sounds an awful lot like the more "humane" solution we've heard about. And more just protecting the institution. There's no guarantee that firing somebody and not giving them access to facilities is going to prevent there from being future victims.

The only point I'm trying to make is I'm seeing what I think is too much desire to say Penn State was the problem. Pedophilia is the problem. I bet there were at least 20 people that should have done something to stop Sandusky. And I bet there were many more that could have done something. Yet, almost everybody I see posting says they wouldn't be one of those people. They're not a part of that messed up culture at Penn State. And maybe I'd believe it if I thought child sex abuse was rare and/or adequately reported when it happens. But the stats say otherwise.

You're taking that out of context. What I was responding to was a question of "what should he have done?" The 'office chat' was bare minimum...stop f'ing showering with kids in my locker room or you're f'ing done here and disgraced, end of discussion. That's ONLY if he didn't believe it was true. Just doing that would have been a small step in the right direction. In that minimum scenario I'm taking into account that JoePa knowing JS for so long probably just KNEW his friend wasn't capable of that. Even if that was the case, he didn't do enough, it seems clear.

Yes, pedophilia is the problem, I was responding to someone who said "what could he have done"...at a minimum, being a good leader, he would have...yes...protected the university...but by putting a 'stop this or you're outta here'...not 'how can we keep this quiet.' By doing the second, he enabled the abuse to continue. And so...pedophilia was the problem but PSU enabled it. As much as I hate to say it, Pedophiles are sick ****ers, so when there are others who enable them to continue their sickness, I blame them more.

 

[mikem]

That's one of the more mind-blowing parts of the story to me, that apparently nobody thought it might be a good idea to have an off-the-record chat with Sandusky to try and get him to deal with his ****. No one even tried to tell him to take it off-campus, which would have been just as despicable but at least would have made a sick kind of sense.

I am quite certain that they had a conversation or two with sandusky over the years. There was a reason that he abruptly resigned in 1998-1999.

I am also certain that he knew where all the bodies were buried as far as how the program was run. A person that deviant, and that far in denial, would use any means necessary to ensure that he still had access to the fb facilities.

One threat of telling everyone how things are not so up and up, and the fb program, and paterno's legacy would have been destroyed 20 years ago.

It has become apparent that joepa guarded the fb program with his life. He was also powerful enough to be able stop the authorities from getting too close.

Hell we have seen the same thing in this state. Look at the u fight tooth and nail to prevent documents of how they tried to cover up a double rape by two fb players from being investigated further.

Pretty scary stuff.

 

[CapnCy]

I also wonder what else may have been covered up. If the "leadership" was this calculated to save face, what else may have the real boss (JoPa) taken care of on his own? There were emails released from a former campus judicial officer where she emailed the prez, basically saying she couldn't do her job because of JoPa...and she left (probably a "maybe it's time you start job searching" type of leave).

I think we all have to stay in check...and I understand JoPa is like a God due to his tenure, etc, but if something like this came from ISU's athletic dept, I would expect heads to roll, even as a die hard fan.

 

[uro cy]

Ah yes hello police? This is Joe Paterno. I have been told of something that is disturbing and I feel necessary to make you aware. I have not witnessed this myself, but what I was told is nothing to take lightly. Please understand that I wish to be a "confidential" source should this be something you will need to act upon, however like I said I feel it necessary to let you know what I heard and the manner I heard it.

Had this happened in 2001 the Penn State imagine, after a nasty black eye, would have healed and became stronger than ever. Instead, we are now trying to determine the extent of the wound and if there is even life left.

Had JoePa done this after a pair of 5 win seasons and no bowl trips.... He would have been forced out for his lack of control, there were plenty of calls at that time that he was too old and washed up. 2002 he wins 9 games and goes bowling, and life is better. He protected "the program" and his chance to chase a meaningless all time victories record.

 

[LivntheCyLife]

You're taking that out of context. What I was responding to was a question of "what should he have done?" The 'office chat' was bare minimum...stop f'ing showering with kids in my locker room or you're f'ing done here and disgraced, end of discussion. That's ONLY if he didn't believe it was true. Just doing that would have been a small step in the right direction. In that minimum scenario I'm taking into account that JoePa knowing JS for so long probably just KNEW his friend wasn't capable of that. Even if that was the case, he didn't do enough, it seems clear.

Yes, pedophilia is the problem, I was responding to someone who said "what could he have done"...at a minimum, being a good leader, he would have...yes...protected the university...but by putting a 'stop this or you're outta here'...not 'how can we keep this quiet.' By doing the second, he enabled the abuse to continue. And so...pedophilia was the problem but PSU enabled it. As much as I hate to say it, Pedophiles are sick ****ers, so when there are others who enable them to continue their sickness, I blame them more.

The question though is if this is a step in the right direction. Maybe they really did nothing but I don't think that's the case. I think the police investigation in 1998 and some of the discussion among PSU officials at that time make it very likely they had tried some of these approaches. I think Sandusky made a decision to resign from his football position so that he'd be under less scrutiny and harder to fire.

I think the preceding events clearly clouded PSU's judgment in 2001 because they didn't want to admit they were wrong in the past now that they had more evidence. That's not an excuse, but people in this thread seem to think there's no lessons to be learned and that every step along the way the obvious choice was black and white.