I guess you weren't around when, in the early years of DMAC's tenure, the hoi poloi was demanding blood.
Gmac vs. Dmac
- Thread starter clonetil01
- Start date
Your evaluation of our personnel was not the issue. I was replying to your question of "How many (of McCarney's players) contributed largely?" You implied it was not many.
In fact, our starting line-up last was comprised largely by Mac's recruits:
TE - Derrick Catlett
OL - Ben Lamaak
OL - Reggie Stephens
WE - Jake Williams
RB - Alexander Robinson
QB - Austin Arnaud
P - Michael Brandtner
DL - Nate Frere
DL - Bailey Johnson
DE - Christopher Lyle
LB - Josh Raven
LB - Jesse Smith
LB - Fred Garrin
DB - James Smith
Holder - Derec Schimdgall
Out of 25 possible starting spots, McCarney recruits occupied 15 of them. This is three years after he left!
That does not speak well for Chizik's recruiting, and speaks volumes for Mac...
It was pretty split actually and when you dig deeper into the two deeps and people that played/split time is is actually slanted towards chizdick and Rhoads more than DMac. But when it comes down to it, the numbers should point to more Senior starters. As they have had longer to develop. The real number is how many underclassmen were starting over upperclassmen and having impacts.
this is from a post in November. I think the numbers stand
"Mac would have 3 years of recruits (RSr(.5), Sr(1), Jr(1) RSo (.5.) chiz 2. years, of recrutis and Rhoads .5 year.
If you look at the 2 deeps, Rhoads and chiz have have 27 players, Mac has 17. Not exactly equal. Now figure in that Chiz and Roads had to go through coaching changes and start from the begining with recruiting and it is even more unbalanced.
The breakdown by my count
Mac-17
Chiz-24
Rhoads-3"
This isn't a pro/con argument just showing the numbers. I like to look at the two deeps because we rotate a lot of players, particularly at DL, DB, WR. Lokking at the two deeps also shows how few guys from Mac's last two classes have made impacts. There are some that are very good, but the percentage is lower
I think it is hard to compare football and basketball coaches mainly due to the big difference in team size. Putting that aside, DMac was given 6 years to produce a winning season. Frankly, he was very lucky to not get fired in 1997 for going 1 and 10. I don't think any of GMacs first 4 seasons look as bad as a 1 and 10 year in football. Its not unreasonable to give GMac 5th year. If he doesn't win next year then JP will have to make a difficult decision. I would like to see GMac succeed, but the line has to be drawn at some point.
1)Seriously, Schmidgall as a starter,c'mon? not sure if you count deep snapper or not but if you count holder then you better. I am guessing you didn't because the numbers don't add up.
2)Hard to compare punters when the other coaches didn't recruit one.
3)Lyle was a chizdick recruit and ARob left until chizdick rerecruited him.
I also think it is better to look at two deeps to get a feel for who contributed. Guys like Benton, Franklin, Darks and Ruemplhammer saw just as much time and had as much of an impact but are not counted. Look at Darks. When he was finally healthy he led the team in catches for three staraight games. Benton had more tackle than Raven, Ruemp had two less than Johnson. Reynolds was beating out Williams before he got hurt. Schwartz and Tiller didn't start but they were a key part of our biggest win of the season. It is a little different story and when you look at two deeps, it shows a lower percentage of DMac players even though he would have had more years of recruits.
Even if you don't look at the two deeps and consider that guys like Franklin and Reynolds were starters until they got hurt, at best the number of starters is 50% Considering DMac had three years of recruits and chizdick 1.5 and Rhoads .5 then it is pretty telling. Especialy when Rhoads and chizdick's recruits are predominantly underclassmen and have fewer years of physical/mental development.
BTW- The majority of DMac's starters you list are on the defensive side of the ball. An area that both Rhoads/Burnham and chizdick claimed we need more speed/talent. And not a part of the team anyone would consider on par with talent wise with the Big 12. They gave a ton and I greatly respect their efforts but I am just repeating what Wally has said.
Last edited:
OK, how many of them were significantly better than their backup. I would say ARob, AA, Brandtner, Smith, Smith, and maybe Jake. Also look at the depth. How many senior backups did we have? Not too many. I was wrong and when I look at it there were more contributing players than I thought but some of them were hardly "impact" players.
Chizik, by a few accounts, got ARob back, he got Benton and Johnson. He got Tiller. He got Schwartz. He got a lot of our Oline. He also had some younger talent that didn't see the field. Also, those guys are four year guys. Chiziks guys did not have the time that these had had. I know it was one year difference is all but there is development in that year.
Yes, Lyle was a Chizik recruit. My error.
But also, wasn't defense the strength of our team last year? Sure seemed so...
\
Lots of Mac's players were also backups pushing for more playing time. My list didn't even include Alburtis, who started some on on DL. O'Connell and Sandvig in the secondary, etc.
Again, I was objecting to your original point about Dmac's players not playing a major role, and that's just not true. There is also no way Arnaud was an automatic get for ISU (please ask him why he came here), and Jesse Smith has said that he knew he would get a fair shake with Mac, or else he wouldn't have come.
FWIW- In my breakdown of the two deeps, it includes those players but not players like Reynolds, Parker and Benton who were hurt.
+1
None of this stuff happens in a vacuum anyway. Context is extremely important. Morgan, for example, was fired after finishing 10th in the league just three years after ISU won the Big 12 title two times in a row, among other things.
In 1998, Smith could have easily dumped Dan McCarney for winning less than ten games in four years, but given what he had dealt with felt he deserved more time. Smith was rewarded.
In 2006, Pollard's view of where the football program was at included a 6th place finish in the North in DMac's 12 year at the helm, and two previous years where the 'Clones whiffed on North Division Championships with bad losses in important games.
Whether we like it or not, Pollard is going to assess McDermott on a curve as well. His view is apparently that MCDermott has had his back against the wall and can prove his ability going forward. The context is as important as the wins and losses. And don't forget the money.
Not that I agree they were the strength, as I think the running game was the strength, but If they were the strength, they were the strength of a 7-6 team? I think that is the point being made and the point being made at the time DMac was forced out. He had peaked and it wasn't looking any better going forward. The fanbase wanted more. They didn't want to peak at 7-6 and valley at 4-8. They wanted to peak at 9-3 and valley at 6-6
No argument here. Something was wrong - really wrong. We were nowhere close to the teams Mac had in the heyday of his era. Not as physical, and not as emotional. I sat there at Trice when KU came in and pounded us as if they were OU or Texas. I sat there when Baylor beat us.
Not saying Mac shouldn't have gone. Just saying his imprint, with players he recruited, were, and are, still all over the place.
No doubt his players are still here and performing. Question remains, are they good enough to get to the next level. Are they better than our competitors?
I agree with you on everything there, what I meant to say earlier and couldn't get it out is that those players have gone 3-9, 2-10, and I think most of us would say we overachieved at 7-6. I'm not saying his guys aren't playing, I am saying he wasn't bringing in the players needed to jump up a rung. I hope that clears up what I was saying on the players.
Disagree. Biggest difference is the financial impact losing the football fanbase has vs losing the MBB fanbase.
