Cryptocurrency

frackincygy

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2015
516
554
93
We should probably shut down retail stock trading too. Can't have people risking their life savings when they don't know what they are doing.

That isn't 'stock trading' that is 'option trading' there is a difference and in one you're FAR likelier to have your capital go to zero because it literally has an expiration date. The fact this 'investor' bought $400k (his entire liquid net worth) of call options speaks to a complete lack of understanding for how options work.
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Mar 23, 2006
24,182
14,703
113
I agree. Being in crypto every day I could feel the shift. As much as this thread is arguing stocks are good and crypto bad in reality a lot of crypto is just being treated like a volatile stock by traders. Fidelity and others are going to bring crypto to the masses packaged such that it goes into their portfolio like a stock or ETF. Most of the arguments in this thread don't have any bearing on the fact that a lot of volume will actually be with these 2 groups.

Yeah I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. My 401k has like buckets of things you can invest in and one is a crypto bucket. There is a group of people in crypto who act like it's not mainstream, but it's pretty mainstream at this point as an investment vehicle. There is a group of people in the pro-stocks markets who act like it's also some weird fringe thing, and it's not that either. Again, I think it's somewhere in the middle. I don't believe for a second every crypto project will go to zero. I also don't believe for a second that it's a truly revolutionary technology, especially once the regulators start intervening in a big way.
 

JustAnotherTimeline

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2021
1,458
1
48
40
Ethereum is a scam. The fee structure alone should ring alarm bells. The disguised whales, the offer to presale to retail, Lubin saying he had a piece of paper in his back pocket around the time SEC Hinman gave the speech, while simultaneously getting paid by his old law firm in the Ethereum alliance, rug pulls on erc-20 coins. Maybe someday, eventually , this century, Ethereum 2.0 will be released.

Fiat is a government scam. The system is setup to make the rich richer and feed on the poor. Those closest to the money printer always benefit the most. I think it's funny that all the liberals around here seem blind to the oppressive system in which they participate. Our system is designed for wealth theft. Dollars are just a game of musical chairs. If the music stopped and everyone wanted their assets, there wouldn't be enough chairs. Unelected officials are in charge of a debt system that relies on currency debasement to ensure the carrot of consumerism is always strong. It's a system destined for failure.

A study of 775 historic fiat currencies revealed that that they all eventually fail. The average lifespan is 27 years. We went off the gold standard about 50 years ago. It's only a matter of time.

Or, will the great United States be the first empire in the history of the world to master the fiat scam? It would be pretty arrogant to believe so.
 
  • Funny
Reactions: BuschLight

JustAnotherTimeline

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2021
1,458
1
48
40
That isn't 'stock trading' that is 'option trading' there is a difference and in one you're FAR likelier to have your capital go to zero because it literally has an expiration date. The fact this 'investor' bought $400k (his entire liquid net worth) of call options speaks to a complete lack of understanding for how options work.

Yes, I understand that. You are actually supporting my point. Celsius and Voyager were offering high yields and were centralized institutions. When you sign up with them you have to agree to their terms which include the fact that you no longer own your assets. I feel terrible for people that are stuck with their assets stuck in BK, but they are similar to this trader who couldn't assess his own risk and didn't know what he was doing. It's just that crypto gets the bad name when a risky bet fails. But when it's the legacy system, it's just a bad trade.
 

JustAnotherTimeline

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2021
1,458
1
48
40
Yeah I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. My 401k has like buckets of things you can invest in and one is a crypto bucket. There is a group of people in crypto who act like it's not mainstream, but it's pretty mainstream at this point as an investment vehicle. There is a group of people in the pro-stocks markets who act like it's also some weird fringe thing, and it's not that either. Again, I think it's somewhere in the middle. I don't believe for a second every crypto project will go to zero. I also don't believe for a second that it's a truly revolutionary technology, especially once the regulators start intervening in a big way.

Man, I almost reacted with "winner" until I read this, lol! I'm honestly surprised you think this.
 

Ames

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Sep 5, 2006
2,096
171
63
Yeah I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. My 401k has like buckets of things you can invest in and one is a crypto bucket. There is a group of people in crypto who act like it's not mainstream, but it's pretty mainstream at this point as an investment vehicle. There is a group of people in the pro-stocks markets who act like it's also some weird fringe thing, and it's not that either. Again, I think it's somewhere in the middle. I don't believe for a second every crypto project will go to zero. I also don't believe for a second that it's a truly revolutionary technology, especially once the regulators start intervening in a big way.
TCP/IP is old. The backbone of the internet is old. It's not getting huge new improvements. Most people don't understand how it all works. It's all the things that were built on top of it that make huge changes. I was there for early websites. I could tell it was going to be big. But I had no idea it would look like what it does today. I had no idea the industries it would disrupt.

I don't think years from now people are suddenly going to be good at interacting directly with Ethereum. Some people will. But most won't realize they use it every day. Things will be built on top of it. The tech is early. Saying we need it to do everything right now and we need to know exactly what that is or it's a failure just isn't realistic.

I know a lot of people in this thread want to crap on NFTs. But I have actual paintings hanging on my wall that got there via NFTs. It gave artists access to a market. I've seen it change lives for artists. And some people specifically don't want the physical art, but want it in digital form. They have that option also. And I'm not saying NFTs are the end all and this is it. It's a stepping stone to get to the next step. If someone reads a few articles and decides they understand it all and it's over for crypto and this is all it will be is just naive.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: JustAnotherTimeline

BryceC

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Mar 23, 2006
24,182
14,703
113
Man, I almost reacted with "winner" until I read this, lol! I'm honestly surprised you think this.

We're now 14 years into the creation of blockchain technology and if you don't want to use it there is literally zero impact on your life.

Web 1.0 is generally considered 1990-2003. That's the same timeframe. For most people by the time 2003 rolled around if you weren't using the internet in business, school, or home you were in the distinct minority.

If you ARE using blockchain technology for any real purpose, you are currently in the distinct minority. I'm not saying it can't get there, but this is a very slow build for something that is supposed to be revolutionary in the current context.
 

Ames

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Sep 5, 2006
2,096
171
63
We're now 14 years into the creation of blockchain technology and if you don't want to use it there is literally zero impact on your life.

Web 1.0 is generally considered 1990-2003. That's the same timeframe. For most people by the time 2003 rolled around if you weren't using the internet in business, school, or home you were in the distinct minority.

If you ARE using blockchain technology for any real purpose, you are currently in the distinct minority. I'm not saying it can't get there, but this is a very slow build for something that is supposed to be revolutionary in the current context.
The web is one of many things riding on top of the internet. Tell us when the internet really started. ARPANET was started in....
 

JustAnotherTimeline

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2021
1,458
1
48
40
We're now 14 years into the creation of blockchain technology and if you don't want to use it there is literally zero impact on your life.

Web 1.0 is generally considered 1990-2003. That's the same timeframe. For most people by the time 2003 rolled around if you weren't using the internet in business, school, or home you were in the distinct minority.

If you ARE using blockchain technology for any real purpose, you are currently in the distinct minority. I'm not saying it can't get there, but this is a very slow build for something that is supposed to be revolutionary in the current context.

Your post is misleading and incorrect. First, by 1985 the internet was a well established technology used by developers and researchers and used daily for communications in other communities. Bitcoin started with no pre mine in 2008 with no fanfare and grew organically since that time. By any reasonable measure, bitcoin has been a shocking success. Ethereum was released in 2015 which introduced the idea of smart contracts. Ethereum was barely usable before the Metropolis upgrade in 2017. Any comparison to the timeframe of web 1.0 before 2017 is wildly flawed.

The term web 3.0 was first coined by Gavin Wood, co-founder of Ethereum in 2014. But the masses only started acknowledging this movement within the last year or two.

You could compare the current state of web 3.0 to the early 90s web 1.0 at the latest.
 

BuschLight

Member
Jul 24, 2022
426
-619
18
I agree. Being in crypto every day I could feel the shift. As much as this thread is arguing stocks are good and crypto bad in reality a lot of crypto is just being treated like a volatile stock by traders. Fidelity and others are going to bring crypto to the masses packaged such that it goes into their portfolio like a stock or ETF. Most of the arguments in this thread don't have any bearing on the fact that a lot of volume will actually be with these 2 groups.
Once it's regulated... CPAs can't advise clients to buy crypto.
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Mar 23, 2006
24,182
14,703
113
Your post is misleading and incorrect. First, by 1985 the internet was a well established technology used by developers and researchers and used daily for communications in other communities. Bitcoin started with no pre mine in 2008 with no fanfare and grew organically since that time. By any reasonable measure, bitcoin has been a shocking success. Ethereum was released in 2015 which introduced the idea of smart contracts. Ethereum was barely usable before the Metropolis upgrade in 2017. Any comparison to the timeframe of web 1.0 before 2017 is wildly flawed.

The term web 3.0 was first coined by Gavin Wood, co-founder of Ethereum in 2014. But the masses only started acknowledging this movement within the last year or two.

You could compare the current state of web 3.0 to the early 90s web 1.0 at the latest.

Okay, let's start in 2017 then. That's 5 years. By this point in 1995, we had Windows '95 and was changing the way people were doing business, communicating, and the expansion of markets online was at least obviously coming.

Right now we have Bitcoin which is highly successful as digital gold. 90% of Americans don't own gold. I don't trust any of the figures getting thrown around about the # of people owning bitcoin.

Again, I'm not saying that it can't come. But right now it's something you can completely avoid and have no problem conducting yourself day to day. That's not revolutionary.

Edit to add: I think crypto is also benefitting the same way Amazon benefitted by basically not having people pay sales tax on their purchases. It's a lot cheaper to buy things on Amazon when you get a 6% discount by not paying the sales tax. Right now, the low fees and everything with crypto are much lower than legacy banking partially because they aren't forced to comply with a lot of the regulations that banks have. Banks spend a ton of money on compliance, anti-fraud, anti-terrorism, etc. stuff that crypto just doesn't have to deal with. We'll see how big of a difference it is as it goes on. that spread is going to tighten significantly IMO if they are forced to adhere to all of the things banks do.
 

Ames

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Sep 5, 2006
2,096
171
63
Okay, let's start in 2017 then. That's 5 years. By this point in 1995, we had Windows '95 and was changing the way people were doing business, communicating, and the expansion of markets online was at least obviously coming.
ARPANET started in 1969. You said by 2003 everyone was using the internet. So let's round down and just call it 30 years to mass adoption. So by your own measure crypto has a long time to sort things out.
 

JustAnotherTimeline

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2021
1,458
1
48
40
Okay, let's start in 2017 then. That's 5 years. By this point in 1995, we had Windows '95 and was changing the way people were doing business, communicating, and the expansion of markets online was at least obviously coming.

Right now we have Bitcoin which is highly successful as digital gold. 90% of Americans don't own gold. I don't trust any of the figures getting thrown around about the # of people owning bitcoin.

Again, I'm not saying that it can't come. But right now it's something you can completely avoid and have no problem conducting yourself day to day. That's not revolutionary.

I don't agree with 1995. I guess I don't know whether to align 2017 with ARPANET in the 1960s or around 1985. Bottom line is we are early. Plus, there is no reason to assume development time should be the same as before. New world, new problems to solve.

I do understand and recognize your point though. It's definitely not Windows 95 yet.
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Mar 23, 2006
24,182
14,703
113
ARPANET started in 1969. You said by 2003 everyone was using the internet. So let's round down and just call it 30 years to mass adoption. So by your own measure crypto has a long time to sort things out.

I mean if you want to be that way. I'm talking about the introduction of web 1.0, when regular people and businesses actually had the capability to access the internet.

People have had access to blockchain technology since the inception and there has been absolutely gobs of VC thrown at projects. IMO you're talking apples and oranges.
 

TrailCy

Active Member
Mar 3, 2021
89
181
43
Fiat is a government scam. The system is setup to make the rich richer and feed on the poor. Those closest to the money printer always benefit the most. I think it's funny that all the liberals around here seem blind to the oppressive system in which they participate. Our system is designed for wealth theft. Dollars are just a game of musical chairs. If the music stopped and everyone wanted their assets, there wouldn't be enough chairs. Unelected officials are in charge of a debt system that relies on currency debasement to ensure the carrot of consumerism is always strong. It's a system destined for failure.

A study of 775 historic fiat currencies revealed that that they all eventually fail. The average lifespan is 27 years. We went off the gold standard about 50 years ago. It's only a matter of time.

Or, will the great United States be the first empire in the history of the world to master the fiat scam? It would be pretty arrogant to believe so.

"Fiat is a government scam."

Based on thousands of years of trial and error vs 10 years of a digital currency?

"The system is setup to make the rich richer and feed on the poor."

This thread is full of people braggin about active trading crypto. Guess who loses? The guy holding the bag at the end. BUt somehow that is not set up to maek the rich richer?

"I think it's funny that all the liberals around here seem blind to the oppressive system in which they participate. "

If you use fiat currency you're part of the oppressive system? Is that the argument? What currency do you use to pay your CF premium membership?

"Dollars are just a game of musical chairs."

Same as crypto.

"Unelected officials are in charge..."

And a system designed by a random guy with no central authority is better how? Who is "elected" with crypto, since "unelected people" are the problem.

"Or, will the great United States be the first empire in the history of the world to master the fiat scam? It would be pretty arrogant to believe so.

Everything eventually ends. The Roman empire. What is considered a good neighborhood. A good school. A large company. It all ends. It's surprising to me a "currency" with a set number of units is somehow immune to eveything you just listed. You complain fiat is biased towards rich people. Guess who is going to end up holding the BTC when the last of th units is mined. It's not going to be poor people as the price continues to go up. You're comparing a millenia of historical data to the jopes and dreams of something that has existed for less than a decade.
 

Scruff

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2008
876
1,173
93
Coralville, IA
You go to your CPA for investment advice? If you are referring to financial planners, they can, and some do recommend bitcoin/eth.
As a CFP that worked within a CPA firm for years, I can say without a doubt you do not want to go to CPA's for investment advice unless they have another designation more relevant. A tax question related to an investment, then absolutely!

Crypto is a very new space. Most CFPs weren't educated on them, myself included. Some are trying to get educated: DACFP and CDAA are two of the programs many are going to for education. Those guys are absolutely recommending it in various forms. Many are still in the camp of having no idea what's going on with Crypto and it takes about 2 minutes of conversation to realize it. Most Errors and Omission insurances won't cover it, so advisors won't touch it. I myself am still hesitant to recommend it but I am trying to be knowledgeable enough to help keep clients out of trouble when they do invest in it.

Hope that helps!
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustAnotherTimeline

JustAnotherTimeline

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2021
1,458
1
48
40
"Fiat is a government scam."

Based on thousands of years of trial and error vs 10 years of a digital currency?

"The system is setup to make the rich richer and feed on the poor."

This thread is full of people braggin about active trading crypto. Guess who loses? The guy holding the bag at the end. BUt somehow that is not set up to maek the rich richer?

"I think it's funny that all the liberals around here seem blind to the oppressive system in which they participate. "

If you use fiat currency you're part of the oppressive system? Is that the argument? What currency do you use to pay your CF premium membership?

"Dollars are just a game of musical chairs."

Same as crypto.

"Unelected officials are in charge..."

And a system designed by a random guy with no central authority is better how? Who is "elected" with crypto, since "unelected people" are the problem.

"Or, will the great United States be the first empire in the history of the world to master the fiat scam? It would be pretty arrogant to believe so.

Everything eventually ends. The Roman empire. What is considered a good neighborhood. A good school. A large company. It all ends. It's surprising to me a "currency" with a set number of units is somehow immune to eveything you just listed. You complain fiat is biased towards rich people. Guess who is going to end up holding the BTC when the last of th units is mined. It's not going to be poor people as the price continues to go up. You're comparing a millenia of historical data to the jopes and dreams of something that has existed for less than a decade.

Yes, if you use fiat then you are part of the oppressive system by default. I use it, because I am basically forced to by our tax code. I would migrate completely out of fiat if the tax code weren't so stupid. I have said time and time again that I only desire for bitcoin to be alternative system. I hope it flourishes for those who choose to use it. I will use as much as makes sense. At its core, bitcoin is just offering an digital peer to peer system based on Austrian economic theory.

Some people value the idea of decentralization, some people don't. No central party has control over the bitcoin core code. Bitcoin is a preset monetary system that is self regulating via POW. Maybe you don't see value in that, but some people do. I can appreciate those who think debt, bail outs, QE, MTT, inflation, etc, are the cats meow. Fiat is gonna fiat.

Also, no bitcoin is not musical chair. It's the complete opposite. The bitcoin in my wallet is mine. I have a guaranteed chair.