Cryptocurrency

melt

Active Member
Apr 5, 2006
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1. Currency only has value because people agree that it does. People used to trade seashells. Dollars only have value to the degree people agree to trust our government. Pretty much every government in history with control of the currency resorts to debasement (like the US has been doing for years). Bitcoin is this era's "sound money". Sound money among many things is free from outside manipulation. Maybe that isn't valuable to you. But it is for an ever increasing number of people.
2. Are you really going to argue that when fiat purchasing power all over the world is at these levels? Bitcoin may be volatile, but if you hold it over time your purchasing power will be preserved. This thesis is true until proven otherwise.
3. Financial services is 7% of GDP. How much energy do you suppose is used for that infrastructure? Bitcoin mining function acts as a guardian for the network millions of people use to store value. It is hard coded to defend against a 51% attack. Is it wasted energy if it protects people and their value?
4. It's indefensible because your premise that if something doesn't produce anything then it can't be valuable is obviously false. Many things have value that don't produce something. Bitcoin provides sound money to the world with a finite supply free from government and corporate control. That is valuable to some people.
5. How long did it take for the receiving party to get your funds? My guess is a few days. Basically by carrier pigeon.
Double posting, sorry.

1. The value of BTC is manipulated every day. There are constant pump and dump schemes around BTC. It is not "sound money".
2. The value of BTC has dropped like 50% over 6 months, your purchasing power has definitely not been preserved.
3. Here's an article Research: Bitcoin consumes less than half of banking sector that says BTC consumes 113TWH per year, while the banking industries consumes 264 TWH per year. Yet the banking industry handles incredibly more transactions than BTC does. BTC does like 260k transactions per day. Visa alone handles 150 million transactions a day. If BTC had to handle 150 million transactions a day, their power consumption would increase 575 times. It is completely unsustainable.
4. Sure, there are things that have value that don't produce anything, like art. Art isn't a currency though. Bitcoin sucks as a currency, and that's why it has no value.
5. It took less than a day. I went to the bank the day before my closing and the title agency received in the morning.
 
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JustAnotherTimeline

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The fact that it's not easy to move 100k around in real money is a feature not a bug. It's supposed to be hard to prevent all kinds of illegal activity.

We probably just have a different view of the political/monetary system we both live in. I can appreciate where you are coming from here. However, if I wanted to send you a large sum of money right now I don't think that is any of the government's business, imo.

Looks like a bug to you is a feature to me and visa versa!
 
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besserheimerphat

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Apr 11, 2006
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I'm not an economist, but my armchair conclusion is the health of an economy/market is based on the number of transactions. As long as no dollar sits still very long, the economy/market is working to get valuable goods and services to the people who need them. Money that sits in someone's bank account isn't doing anything for anyone. Hence why a little inflation is good and deflation is really bad. If something gains value by not doing anything to/with it, then there is incentive to keep it out of circulation. Whether that's bitcoin or a house.

But people can't be forced to spend their money. Taxes are a form of that, but on net the billionaires are pulling money out of circulation which means there is less for the poor who need it to survive. If we can't raise taxes on the super wealthy, then the only way to get money to those who legitimately NEED it is to create it. That's the central bank's job. If our system weren't set up to funnel money from the poor to the rich and keep it there, we wouldn't need the central bank to increase money supply.

Instead, we create Monopoly money for people to become paper millionaires - until that coin/NFT/whatever collapses and, once again, money gets filtered upwards. In this case, maybe to a corrupt Chinese or Russian or North Korean official via a hacker instead of a CEO.
 

JustAnotherTimeline

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Double posting, sorry.

1. The value of BTC is manipulated every day. There are constant pump and dump schemes around BTC. It is not "sound money".
2. The value of BTC has dropped like 50% over 6 months, your purchasing power has definitely not been preserved.
3. Here's an article Research: Bitcoin consumes less than half of banking sector that says BTC consumes 113TWH per year, while the banking industries consumes 264 TWH per year. Yet the banking industry handles incredibly more transactions than BTC does. BTC does like 260k transactions per day. Visa alone handles 150 million transactions a day. If BTC had to handle 150 million transactions a day, their power consumption would increase 575 times. It is completely unsustainable.
4. Sure, there are things that have value that don't produce anything, like art. Art isn't a currency though. Bitcoin sucks as a currency, and that's why it has no value.
5. It took less than a day. I went to the bank the day before my closing and the title agency received in the morning.

1. It is sound money by definition.
2. I wouldn't call 6 months long term. I would suggest measuring from each halving when supply shock occurs. The price in 2020 at the last halving was $9000. So, my guess that those who bought the beginning of this cycle will do pretty well come 2024 at the next halving.
3. You can't extrapolate the data like that. The linear math you suggest is incorrect. Bitcoin cost per user goes down as the users increase. Also, you clearly aren't aware of Layer 2 solutions that are fast and cheaper then visa.
4. Correction, you don't think it has any value.
5. I could be wrong, but I am guessing funds didn't clear same day. In other words, the money isn't there.
 

JustAnotherTimeline

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To your first point, Bitcoin also isn't backed by anything physical, so bitcoin and fiat money are no different. I agree that wages have not kept up with inflation, and that money has definitely flowed unevenly to the wealthy, but that seems to be divorced from what bitcoin is doing.

Like you said, bitcoin is fixed at 21m units. This makes bitcoin very susceptible to deflation, meaning the value of a bitcoin tomorrow is more than it is today. If bitcoin was to become a currency of the future, meaning more and more adoption and more use, then demand would constantly increase, while supply was constantly flat, causing the price to constantly rise. That's great if you're someone who bought BTC a couple years ago and didn't use it. It's terrible if you need to buy bitcoin in the future.

Economies generally hate deflation because it makes people not want to spend money. Why should I spend my BTC today if it will be worth more tomorrow? Inflation encourages spending since the value of your dollar today is worth less than tomorrow. Deflation can cause stagnant economies as every sits on their money. It's why the Federal Reserve likes to keep inflation at 2%, it is a slight nudge to keep the economy moving.

BTC is not solving anything for people at the bottom because if they can't afford a BTC today, then it becomes even harder for them to afford it tomorrow because the price should keep going up. Except now when everyone decides to dump their BTC and the value drops 50% over 6 months. Which is another reason why BTC sucks as a currency, it's incredibly volatile.

I understand the economics. But keep in mind I never suggested BTC should become global reserve currency or even the prevailing currency in the United States. If it is an alternative I see no reason you should be concerned about deflationary pressures.
 

TrailCy

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Mar 3, 2021
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1. It is sound money by definition.
2. I wouldn't call 6 months long term. I would suggest measuring from each halving when supply shock occurs. The price in 2020 at the last halving was $9000. So, my guess that those who bought the beginning of this cycle will do pretty well come 2024 at the next halving.
3. You can't extrapolate the data like that. The linear math you suggest is incorrect. Bitcoin cost per user goes down as the users increase. Also, you clearly aren't aware of Layer 2 solutions that are fast and cheaper then visa.
4. Correction, you don't think it has any value.
5. I could be wrong, but I am guessing funds didn't clear same day. In other words, the money isn't there.

Help me understand this with as few words as possible.

If bitcoin money or an investment?

If it's money - are rapid rises or falls sustainable? Is that what we desire in a monetary system? Inflation in other countries is not grounds for me to think fiat currency overall is bad.

The more cars that pay gas tax lowers the indivual's share of road maintenance. But that doens't mean having more cars on the road is better.

As far as moving money around, I agree the current system is a fature, not a bug. Is it annoying, yes. but it also protects people. If my son gets run over and killed by a drunk UPS driver, what is stopping UPS from immediatylb transferring all their bitcoin assets to a random third party to prevent me from a lawsuit? What is preventing a husband from shopping off all their money before a divorce? What is stopping Putin from sending the NRA a billion untraceable dollars.

I understand the value goes up. but let's pretend it didn't. Let's pretend as was as stable as the US dollar. Would you still invest/buy it?
 

JustAnotherTimeline

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Question for the bitcoin bears in the room:

I sense some visceral reactions from some of you (and I have for some time) when it comes to bitcoin. I am curious as to why such strong negative feelings as opposed to indifference? I mean, there are plenty of investments of which I have limited knowledge or am not interested in. But I can't think of any investment I oppose to a strong degree.

I don't intend to debate. I am honestly wondering why some have such strong negative emotion towards bitcoin.

Thanks to anyone willing to share!
 
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BryceC

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Question for the bitcoin bears in the room:

I sense some visceral reactions from some of you (and I have for some time) when it comes to bitcoin. I am curious as to why such strong negative feelings as opposed to indifference? I mean, there are plenty of investments of which I have limited knowledge or am not interested in. But I can't think of any investment I oppose to a strong degree.

I don't intend to debate. I am honestly wondering why some have such strong negative emotion towards bitcoin.

Thanks to anyone willing to share!

If it's an investment, I don't think it's a good one at this point.

If it's money, I don't think it's a good one.

IMO I'm a risk averse person and I don't have huge asperations to generational wealth. I'm already living a better life than I ever imagined. Just not worth the risk to me.

We probably just have a different view of the political/monetary system we both live in. I can appreciate where you are coming from here. However, if I wanted to send you a large sum of money right now I don't think that is any of the government's business, imo.

Looks like a bug to you is a feature to me and visa versa!

This is honestly my biggest complaint about bitcoin. You like it but I think it's awful.
 
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Clark

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Jun 24, 2009
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Question for the bitcoin bears in the room:

I sense some visceral reactions from some of you (and I have for some time) when it comes to bitcoin. I am curious as to why such strong negative feelings as opposed to indifference? I mean, there are plenty of investments of which I have limited knowledge or am not interested in. But I can't think of any investment I oppose to a strong degree.

I don't intend to debate. I am honestly wondering why some have such strong negative emotion towards bitcoin.

Thanks to anyone willing to share!

Someone has to be on the wrong side of the adoption curve. Might as well be you!

**** like this doesn't engender indifference
 
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JustAnotherTimeline

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Help me understand this with as few words as possible.

If bitcoin money or an investment?

If it's money - are rapid rises or falls sustainable? Is that what we desire in a monetary system? Inflation in other countries is not grounds for me to think fiat currency overall is bad.

The more cars that pay gas tax lowers the indivual's share of road maintenance. But that doens't mean having more cars on the road is better.

As far as moving money around, I agree the current system is a fature, not a bug. Is it annoying, yes. but it also protects people. If my son gets run over and killed by a drunk UPS driver, what is stopping UPS from immediatylb transferring all their bitcoin assets to a random third party to prevent me from a lawsuit? What is preventing a husband from shopping off all their money before a divorce? What is stopping Putin from sending the NRA a billion untraceable dollars.

I understand the value goes up. but let's pretend it didn't. Let's pretend as was as stable as the US dollar. Would you still invest/buy it?

It is both money and an investment. Here is a definition of "sound money" which I would argue bitcoin is:

Money that has the purchasing power determined by markets, independent of governments and political parties

You also bring to light another misnomer. Since blockchain is public it is much easier to trace then you think. As a total percent of transactions recent studies suggest dollars have a larger percent of overall transactions suspected as illicit then bitcoin.

The US dollar loses purchasing power YOY. It's value goes down It isn't stable. So comparatively, no I wouldn't buy bitcoin if it had an infinite supply potential like the dollar.
 

Clark

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Jun 24, 2009
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And? I am happy to admit I have strong positive emotions towards bitcoin. I never said I was indifferent. Was curious about negative visceral reactions.

When you either infer or outright call people stupid for not investing in something, you don't then get to be surprised when they react negatively.

This may come as a surprise to you, but it is possible to be positive about something and not be an jerk.

Personally, I am pretty indifferent to bitcoin. I'm not going to invest in it, but I don't think it's stupid either if done responsibly.

It's a common refrain I hear from ISU fans that they don't really hate the Iowa teams, they hate the Iowa fans. I think the same case applies here. People don't hate bitcoin, they hate "bitcoin guy."
 

JustAnotherTimeline

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When you either infer or outright call people stupid for not investing in something, you don't then get to be surprised when they react negatively.

This may come as a surprise to you, but it is possible to be positive about something and not be an jerk.

Personally, I am pretty indifferent to bitcoin. I'm not going to invest in it, but I don't think it's stupid either if done responsibly.

It's a common refrain I hear from ISU fans that they don't really hate the Iowa teams, they hate the Iowa fans. I think the same case applies here. People don't hate bitcoin, they hate "bitcoin guy."

I can see that. Good comparison. Fair points.

I believe I am guilty of what you say at times in my day to day. Sometimes it's hard to find that line between talking about and defending something you are passionate about and being a douche. Appreciate your response!
 

melt

Active Member
Apr 5, 2006
286
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Chicago, IL
Question for the bitcoin bears in the room:

I sense some visceral reactions from some of you (and I have for some time) when it comes to bitcoin. I am curious as to why such strong negative feelings as opposed to indifference? I mean, there are plenty of investments of which I have limited knowledge or am not interested in. But I can't think of any investment I oppose to a strong degree.

I don't intend to debate. I am honestly wondering why some have such strong negative emotion towards bitcoin.

Thanks to anyone willing to share!
Mostly for me because it's a giant waste of energy. In a time when we need to be reducing our energy consumption, crypto came along and spends a ton of it for absolutely no reason at all. Bitcoin doesn't really do anything that regular currencies don't already do, but they do it in an extremely wasteful way. I get sick of people talking about how bitcoin is some new technology we need to adopt when it sucks at what it does and hurts the planet at the same time.

Secondarily, it's because it's a scam. People go all over social media hyping it up just so they can take other people's money when they get suckered in.
 
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agrabes

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I'm indifferent to mildly positive on Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in the sense I think there's a reasonable chance they stick around and have some usefulness in the medium/long term. I'm strongly negative on the overall culture of the cryptocurrency, blockchain enthusiast, and Web 3.0 world. Essentially, it's a group of people who believe that all the problems of the world will be magically solved because we've invented a secure software algorithm. It's frustrating, because it catches up people in hype and magical thinking, distracting from solving real problems. It's the equivalent of saying "We are writing our contracts in ink now rather than pencil! There will never be fraud or contract disputes ever again!"

I also dislike those who are "hard money" enthusiasts because as often as not they tend to believe they're smarter than everyone else and that fiat currency is some kind of global conspiracy created to transfer power to world governments and some kind of cabal of wealthy elites. That's just not how the real world works. The world's economies shift from harder to softer money and back over time based on the issues facing the economy at the time. There is no true, perfect "hard money" because even the supply of cryptocurrency does vary over time and there is no objective intrinsic value of anything, all economic value is relative. Whether they be gold bugs or crypto enthusiasts, they annoy me equally. The world's problems would not be solved if we were to simply shift to a hard money system permanently - that should be obvious and if you're a person who's willing to think enough to realize we can't just keep printing money forever, you should also be able to think enough to realize we can't keep the money supply static either.

Nothing personal against any individual, just my feelings on the general culture.
 
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clonehome

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I never compared crypto to a stock. Bitcoin is money. By definition, money is valuable by general consent of a group of people. Just like any other money it has value because some people agree that it does.
A problem I have with cryptos is that since they’ve just not gotten any traction as a payment method there are no physical assets valued in crypto. BTC closed today around $28.5K and if you offered anyone 1 coin for their car or 10 for their house they would all say GTFO. Even the evangelists. So while fiat currencies like USD have problems, there are still tens of trillions of dollars in items ranging from a tshirt to an airplane that represent a range of values in that currency. Whereas cryptos have virtually none, so it’s impossible to value them other than as a concept, with an arbitrary daily exchange rate with USD.

Gold, silver and other precious metals are subject to some arbitrary valuation too, but at least they have physical uses like jewelry, electronics, teeth:), etc that provide a floor. At one time they were the currencies used to value physical assets. Plus, they truly have a finite supply. Cryptos don’t. BTC may be limited to 21M coins but there are now thousands of other coins out there with no real limitation in supply.

There’s a novelty to bitcoin and other cryptos that seems to be eroding so their longevity remains to be seen. The ethereum network may have practical business uses so it has a better chance I think. But the value of an ETH will be more in line with the value of the service being provided as measured in USD. The speculative boost in the value of ETH as a currency will likely fade away.
 
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