No Troll What We'd Like to See Discussion

[Tre4ISU]

I'm interested in the defensive ratings for Hoiberg's teams. Any way to find those? Where they better or worse than Prohm?

Same offensively mostly. Better defensively as a whole.

 

[CloneFan4]

Same, im done ********. You win @Macloney

Save what little sanity you have left

 

[acody]

Let’s just make a few assumptions right away to frame the discussion:

1. We aren’t going to crap on players. They are doing their best. I absolutely respect the heck out of every one of them, most of whom came from somewhere a long way away to a place they didn’t know to try and achieve a dream.
2. Prohm isn’t going to get fired after this year.
3. Hoiberg isn’t coming back.
4. TH is going pro.
5. This season, for all intents and purposes, is over. They can shuffle the pieces around on the team, start one guy over another, etc, but let’s be honest, it’s not going to make much of a difference.

Now, for what I’d like to see for 2021:

1. Identity on defense. The departure of TH will be the last departing plus player on offense. For all of Prohm’s talk about being tough, gritty, defensive minded… he has not been able to effectively communicate it. He needs to fire an assistant and bring in a guy to instill that mindset in this team. If he doesn’t do this, he’ll be fired anyway and players will likely transfer out, so he needs to do this even if it drives guys away.
2. Also on this, we tried a bunch of defenses yesterday that I thought were just doomed to failure. The Young/MJ two bigs doubling the opposing big was an alley oop machine. The zone was a disaster. That said, I think we need to lean into that zone next year. We go full Baylor. Foster/Conditt down low, Johnson or Blackwell on the edges, and a consistently feisty Jackson at the point. I honestly think we’ll have to play 90’s Knicks basketball, slow it down, grind it out, work from the inside out.
3. We absolutely need Jackson to develop a 3 point shot. He’s struggling mightily right now but I like what I’m seeing from him from an effort and tenacity level. Honestly I think he’s the only guy actually playing like Prohm wants this team to right now.

If this team is going to have success going forward, the identity of the team needs to change. If it doesn’t next year and we roll the ball out the same way we are this year without TH, that’s going to be one of the worst teams in the modern history of the program. It’s up to Prohm to figure that out or get fired. I do think there are kids that want to defend the legacy of Hilton on this team and I’m sure this isn’t what they pictured when they signed up for this.

I also think we should honestly just be nice and not freak out the rest of the way. This year is what it is. No use getting pissed about it.

I decided several years ago that worrying about ISU football and basketball is not worth it because I have zero control over any of it. It's easier to search for something else that is more fulfilling for the soul. Something that you have some control over.

 

[Gunnerclone]

Completely agree on Solo. Prohm has no idea what to do with post players.

What would you do with Solo? He’s a tweener that’s had injury problems that has caused him to lose a step. They bulked him up so much his only remaining features are solid straight up post defense and an unreliable jump hook turn around thing on offense.

Another big “stuff happens” thing that no one wants to take in to consideration because “Prohm bad”. We missed what he can bring last year and we don’t have a great place to use him this year. He would have been good for THT and Wiggy to open up the rim using his body and now we don’t have anyone that gets to the rim consistently.

 

[SpokaneCY]

Too many players have the "green light" to launch shots whenever they feel like it. You see 3 players hang their heads while getting back on defense because they are frustrated having seen another bad shot taken. Really deflating.

Also, these guys think they are playing good defense in games. Look at them when a guy makes a shot that they think was contested. They drop or shake their head. The thing is, when practicing against each other that so called "good defense" they think they are playing is really just a product of not having any shooters.

Funny thought.... We shut down our shooters in practice all the time! Why doesn't it translate to the court!?!?

 

[Cyclones125]

I don't think it is that. I think its that he and his family didn't like living in a fish bowl in Ames. Also, how many coaches left a job only to return later? I'd guess very few in the last 20 years. Even fewer probably had success in their second stint.

I've only heard him say positive things about Ames, granted he's gonna say that either way. But if that's really the issue, Lincoln wouldn't seem like an ideal location either. Bill Snyder is the obvious coach that comes to mind but other than that I don't know. Fred's situation is unique because he left to go to the NBA. Most coaches go to another college considered to be a better program, which I would imagine leaves a sour taste in fans' mouths. I'd much rather give Fred another shot to see if he can replicate his previous success than continue down this path with Prohm or try out a new coach with no ties to ISU.

 

[SpokaneCY]

Anyone who jumps up in the air to make a pass in practice should immediately be awarded 4 laps around the court.

Looking at YOU Hali! He's just good enough to get away with it.

 

[Gunnerclone]

I don't think it is that. I think its that he and his family didn't like living in a fish bowl in Ames. Also, how many coaches left a job only to return later? I'd guess very few in the last 20 years. Even fewer probably had success in their second stint.

Things change. Especially with age. Not say it would happen but using justifications from the last time around may not fit the scenario in 1-3-5 years out.

 

[Cyinthenorth]

I'm okay with still playing and scoring points. But's it's kinda like running a full court press when up by 20+. Or when a FB team is down by 50 with a minute left, and call timeout to stop the clock.

I'd agree with you only in the case KU had kept their starters in til the end of the game and was still throwing lobs on us at that point. Self respects ISU though, and would not condone that kind of behavior.

 

[mcblogerson]

All signs point to a tourney make or break year for Prohm next season.

We needed one guy to step up and be “the man” with TH this year. Conditt and Bolton are close.

Why Nixon has a green light from 3 is mind boggling. Im not bashing the guy in general, he’s a good overall player, but stop with the ******* 3s already.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Good question, I hadn't done that, but it's interesting data. All of this data is from Basketball Reference and is straight Defensive Rating - how many points you give up per 100 possessions. No real reason for using this metric, it just happened to be on the page when I was looking back through results & rosters from each year.

14/15 - 109th
13/14 - 117th
12/13 - 171st
11/12 - 159th
10/11 - 111th

So Fred, the coach who players have pretty much said barely worked on defense in practice at all, by DRtg has 3 seasons that are better than the best defensive team that Prohm has put on the floor.

I would not use that data.

It does not adjust for court and/or level of competition.

You should use Bart Torvik or KenPom for making that adjustment.

The #1 team in the country by that metric might be from a cruddy conference. I doubt even a good defensive team from the MEAC lasts long when Kansas is throwing everything they have at you like they did last night. Conference/competition matters.

 

[madguy30]

Michigan is still a tourney team(currently10-4) and they will be in the middle of the pack of the Big10. Bama(currently 8-6) is an NIT team if I had to guess based on their remaining schedule.

Yep and after the Bahamas Michigan shot up to be ranked in the top 5, has proven to not be worthy of that ranking since.

Vs. Bama ISU hit 15/29 threes. That's not what this team has done on the season, so what happened in the Bahamas is not what this team can just go back to doing.

 

[moores2]

This
I remember when CSP first came to Iowa State, he said that he couldn’t believe how much his inherited players practiced, they were in the gym every chance they got. There’s no reason for our current team to be so poor at shooting. These are division I big 12 basketball players, they should be able to shoot an average/decent percentage. Do they not practice enough??

I think they are practicing enough, but they aren't practicing correctly. They seem to be not very good at taking game speed shots. (Something a lot of teams struggle with especially if all of their practice shots are not taken at game speed.) The adrenaline kicks in for the new guys especially. (Look at Jackson and Grill, everything is long.)

 

[quasistellar]

Stick with the experienced guys, as they seem to generally play better than the younger ones. Keep as many older guys on the floor at one time is possible when managing rotations... Well, unless you're tanking the season, in which case put out the young guys as much as possible. Depends on goal.

I just want to see this team shoot the damn ball well. Watching them miss open shots and unconfidentally pass away open looks is infuriating. It doesn't matter how good your defense is, you're not winning games shooting <40% from the floor. That's unacceptable from D1-level athletes, as is the frequently-poor passing. These are basic fundamentals that a D1 player should be able to handle by the time they reach campus, then have refined and grow while here.

I think this season is already a goner. Even if by some miracle we make the tourney, we will absolutely get the worst possible seed or pairing due to our HISTORICALLY bad home losses so far.

Shut down on the upperclassmen except to spell the younger guys who we will need to improve for next year. That likely means things might get worse before they get better, if that’s possible, but at least that’s a short term outcome I can accept.

Honestly with Grill and Jackson getting as minutes as they are, I might have thought Prohm was already doing this, but then he has Conditt coming off the bench. . .

 

[moores2]

All signs point to a tourney make or break year for Prohm next season.

We needed one guy to step up and be “the man” with TH this year. Conditt and Bolton are close.

Why Nixon has a green light from 3 is mind boggling. Im not bashing the guy in general, he’s a good overall player, but stop with the ******* 3s already.

I saw him make his first attempt last night, and thought oh no here we go again. If he misses the first one, he is hesitant. Also, how many good wide open looks have a clear path to the rim as well as a good shot?

 

[simply1]

I think they are practicing enough, but they aren't practicing correctly. They seem to be not very good at taking game speed shots. (Something a lot of teams struggle with especially if all of their practice shots are not taken at game speed.) The adrenaline kicks in for the new guys especially. (Look at Jackson and Grill, everything is long.)

I mean they’re probably getting WIDE open looks in scrimmages.

 

[madguy30]

Funny thought.... We shut down our shooters in practice all the time! Why doesn't it translate to the court!?!?

And why doesn't the football team run more running back screens with for 50 yard touchdowns anyway!?

 

[Cycl1]

I've only heard him say positive things about Ames, granted he's gonna say that either way. But if that's really the issue, Lincoln wouldn't seem like an ideal location either. Bill Snyder is the obvious coach that comes to mind but other than that I don't know. Fred's situation is unique because he left to go to the NBA. Most coaches go to another college considered to be a better program, which I would imagine leaves a sour taste in fans' mouths. I'd much rather give Fred another shot to see if he can replicate his previous success than continue down this path with Prohm or try out a new coach with no ties to ISU.

You can love a place and not want to live there. At Nebraska, Fred is the basketball coach. In Ames he was getting write in votes for mayor as a player. He is the home town hero. The biggest fish in the pond. People in Ames have known him and his family forever. That is a lot of extra pressure. I think coaching is pretty high pressure as is.

 

[Tre4ISU]

What would you do with Solo? He’s a tweener that’s had injury problems that has caused him to lose a step. They bulked him up so much his only remaining features are solid straight up post defense and an unreliable jump hook turn around thing on offense.

Another big “stuff happens” thing that no one wants to take in to consideration because “Prohm bad”. We missed what he can bring last year and we don’t have a great place to use him this year. He would have been good for THT and Wiggy to open up the rim using his body and now we don’t have anyone that gets to the rim consistently.

Look out. Incoming. I pointed out a couple years ago that his size isn't enough to be a big threat down low and for him to truly be a difference maker, he'd have to be able to shoot. He can shoot in the midrange. We don't see him shooting from outside much but I really thought that'd be something we'd see. He and Jacobsen are essentially the same as they're both undersized 5s who don't operate well in space defensively and they hurt spacing offensively as they aren't shooters. I don't think they play effectively longer than Lewis and while Lewis is bad at some things, he's more athletic and seems very eager to get after the glass even if it isn't always effective. Oh, and he can shoot. I know it's a limited sample but considering are other shooting sans Hali is awful, I think he could maybe help the team.

 

[Tre4ISU]

You can love a place and not want to live there. At Nebraska, Fred is the basketball coach. In Ames he was getting write in votes for mayor as a player. He is the home town hero. The biggest fish in the pond. People in Ames have known him and his family forever. That is a lot of extra pressure. I think coaching is pretty high pressure as is.

Fred came back here because it was his best shot to be a head coach. It's the only sane reason. You'd have to be nuts to be him and want to live in that fish bowl in such a small community.