***Post game thread- ISU vs Cincy***

[jsb]

How about every single Tom Izzo or Bill Self coached team ever? How do they ever function at a high level offensively? Their legs must be soo tired from being expected to defend.

Good god...

And Tom Izzo and Bill Self are two of the best coaches in the history of the game at two of the best schools in college basketball history. We have 18 NCAA tournament appearances in our history and 5 of those were in the last 5 years. But yes, lets ******* compare our program to two of the best ones ever. Good god, indeed.

We can compare and aim for that level all we want. But we aren't there yet. And we probably will never be. We certainly won't be running coaches in and out every 5 years.

 

[CoKane]

If you want a real kick to the nuts there's a solid chance that Nigel Williams-Goss and/or Kyle Washington are wearing the cardinal and gold right now if TJ is the HC. Have a nice day.

Cool. I mean, I wasn't on team TJ two years ago but thanks for trying.

 

[Clone_12]

Don't move the goalposts or anything. If we had a full roster of only top 50 kids with a starting 5 comprised of top 20 kids I doubt you'd be asking that question.

And if we had Georges Niang we'd be better offensively. Almost literally every single regular season conference champion and NCAA Tournament champion is a good defensive team.

The idea that you have to pick between being good on offense or defense is beyond ********.

 

[CySmurf]

I start feeling bad ...
...and then I think of St. John's team and I don't feel near as bad anymore.

 

[jsb]

And if we had Georges Niang we'd be better offensively. Almost literally every single regular season conference champion and NCAA Tournament champion is a good defensive team.

The idea that you have to pick between being good on offense or defense is beyond ********.

It's not an either/or. But you do give up things.

Look the offense shouldn't have been as bad as it was tonight even with great defense. But to think that the offense is going to be as good is beyond stupid as well.

 

[Clone_12]

And Tom Izzo and Bill Self are two of the best coaches in the history of the game at two of the best schools in college basketball history. We have 18 NCAA tournament appearances in our history and 5 of those were in the last 5 years. But yes, lets ******* compare our program to two of the best ones ever. Good god, indeed.

We can compare and aim for that level all we want. But we aren't there yet. And we probably will never be. We certainly won't be running coaches in and out every 5 years.

No **** we aren't there yet. My point is you work to be good at both.

 

[Gunnerclone]

And if we had Georges Niang we'd be better offensively. Almost literally every single regular season conference champion and NCAA Tournament champion is a good defensive team.

The idea that you have to pick between being good on offense or defense is beyond ********.

And almost every P5 regular season champion and NCAA tournament champion is a blue blood. If you're not a blue blood and you want to compete you need to have an identity and you need to be elite at proliferating that identity. We can beat KU with a top 10 offense and a 100+ defense. We can't beat KU with a 50 something offense and a 50 something defense.

 

[acgclone]

And head coach TJ is currently 2-5 or 2-4. It's hard to know exactly what would have happened.

I will probably get blasted for saying this:

I was against TJ being hired when Fred left, but one thing I was thinking about tonight that is a little scary to consider.....

From this year's roster, the only guys that our current staff recruited from start to finish are Holden, Carter and Kasongo.

Without bashing those 3 it's safe to say we need higher level players than that to continue winning in the B12.

Bowie, Babb, Jackson, Young and Long are all TJ guys. They are contributing pretty well overall and appear to be the foundation for next year and going forward.

Obviously Prohm and Berry deserve props for Wiggninton who may be a program changer similar to Niang and Monte.

Lewis and McNeill look like they could be really good gets, but they were originally TJ guys. Prohm deserves credit for keeping them however. TJ has a pretty good eye, IMO so I have hopes for these two.

Lard is a really important piece so getting him here for 2nd semester is key.

Overall I still worry about our recruiting going forward. The track record so far is spotty at best for this staff.

 

[jsb]

No **** we aren't there yet. My point is you work to be good at both.

Again, I don't know why you think they aren't.

But it does require coaching consistency. Which we haven't had in 23 years.

 

[jsb]

I will probably get blasted for saying this:

I was against TJ being hired when Fred left, but one thing I was thinking about tonight that is a little scary to consider.....

From this year's roster, the only guys that our current staff recruited from start to finish are Holden, Carter and Kasongo.

Without bashing those 3 it's safe to say we need higher level players than that to continue winning in the B12.

Bowie, Babb, Jackson, Young and Long are all TJ guys. They are contributing pretty well overall and appear to be the foundation for next year and going forward.

Obviously Prohm and Berry deserve props for Wiggninton who may be a program changer similar to Niang and Monte.

Lewis and McNeill look like they could be really good gets, but they were originally TJ guys. Prohm deserves credit for keeping them however. TJ has a pretty good eye, IMO so I have hopes for these two.

Lard is a really important piece so hopefully he can make it here in December.

Overall I still worry about our recruiting going forward. The track record so far is spotty at best for this staff.

Again, he's only had one full recruiting season. I'm not sure why we are blaming him for 4 ****** recruiting years.

 

[Clone_12]

And almost every P5 regular season champion and NCAA tournament champion is a blue blood. If you're not a blue blood and you want to compete you need to have an identity and you need to be elite at proliferating that identity. We can beat KU with a top 10 offense and a 100+ defense. We can't beat KU with a 50 something offense and a 50 something defense.

I assume you're talking about a one game scenario when you say 'we can't beat KU with a 50 something offense and a 50 something defense', since we never won the conference over them with a great offense and poor defense...to which I would say is not true.

We were the 6 seed in the Big 12 tourney last year with the 3rd most efficient offense in the nation. Why weren't we better with the most efficient offense in school history??? Because our defense sucked.

 

[acgclone]

Again, he's only had one full recruiting season. I'm not sure why we are blaming him for 4 ****** recruiting years.

I'm not really blaming him. I just haven't seen enough to know if they can recruit consistently.

They've been here for 1.5 years and I would probably trade all 3 players they have brought in for Edozie right now.

 

[randomfan44]

Don't move the goalposts or anything. If we had a full roster of only top 50 kids with a starting 5 comprised of only top 20 kids I doubt you'd be asking that question.

Kansas started the season with Frank Mason, Devonte Graham and Landen Lucas in their starting lineup. Not exactly "top 20 kids".

ISU just got thumped on the boards and gave up too many 2nd chance points to win. It happens. Cincy can do that to a team that plays small. I assume Prohm will address the bad shot selection that happened down the stretch of this game and the Gonzaga game and that they'll spend a bit more time on those scenarios in the extra practice time between semesters. A tip of the hat to the ISU defense; you guys are certainly much improved on that end. Prohm is really doing a good job.

 

[allfourcy]

Too many thread and posts to read through this late but couldn't help to chime in on a few of them. First the positive....overall impressed with our defensive improvement. Keep it up. As for the not so positive.... I think the biggest problem with our offense (specifically our 218th in the nation low 3-pt percentage) is simple, no Niang. Sure you can say ball movement, slumps, shot selection, etc., etc., etc. but how many times do we have a guy in the post drawing a double team like Georges did and throwing it out to an 'open' shooter? And for those saying you don't like the pick and roll offense, funny how effective it was when Monte and Georges ran it last year. Tough loss but so many things happened in that game, yet I have no expertise to jump on any coach bashing at this point. Only thing that keeps going over and over in my mind, and I need to see a replay, but with the 3 pt. lead, why did Matt panic and try to pass that ball? He or the bench needed to call a timeout!!!!!!!!! That was a killer. (But thats probably what the whole fan base said about Uthoff's inbound pass last year too.) It happens I guess. I know, many will say one play doesn't cost you, but when you play tough close games, which it looks like this team will do a lot against the tough opponents, then yeah its costly.

 

[jsb]

Too many thread and posts to read through this late but couldn't help to chime in on a few of them. First the positive....overall impressed with our defensive improvement. Keep it up. As for the not so positive.... I think the biggest problem with our offense (specifically our 218th in the nation low 3-pt percentage) is simple, no Niang. Sure you can say ball movement, slumps, shot selection, etc., etc., etc. but how many times do we have a guy in the post drawing a double team like Georges did and throwing it out to an 'open' shooter? And for those saying you don't like the pick and roll offense, funny how effective it was when Monte and Georges ran it last year. Tough loss but so many things happened in that game, yet I have no expertise to jump on any coach bashing at this point. Only thing that keeps going over and over in my mind, and I need to see a replay, but with the 3 pt. lead, why did Matt panic and try to pass that ball? He or the bench needed to call a timeout!!!!!!!!! That was a killer. (But thats probably what the whole fan base said about Uthoff's inbound pass last year too.) It happens I guess. I know, many will say one play doesn't cost you, but when you play tough close games, which it looks like this team will do a lot against the tough opponents, then yeah its costly.

For once I don't think you are overreacting! What is wrong with me?

Playing without Georges is hard. Monte is learning to play without him. So are naz and Matt. IT takes some time.

 

[Beyerball]

Except Cincy isn't a really good team....they are an average squad that is probably a 8-9 seed in the NCAA Tournament. We will face at least four more teams in Hilton that are exponentially better.

Yea that's just totally untrue..Cinnci was ranked couple weeks ago and will now be ranked again..They are favorite to win American and will end up a 6-7 seed probably..

Folks...relax..we will get things figured out..However we cant drop another non conf game because that would be to a bad opponent..

Solomon Young would have played a fair amount tonight with his size and rebounding. The officials honestly were not good for a home game. THought we were playing at Cinnci. Some really terrible calls.

 

[AuH2O]

I'm not really blaming him. I just haven't seen enough to know if they can recruit consistently.

They've been here for 1.5 years and I would probably trade all 3 players they have brought in for Edozie right now.

And next years class is better than the previous 3. It's going to be fine.

 

[Dingus]

Like others have said, the offense is just brutal right now.

Annoying that we ultimately lost on a flop head-snap.

I think the best lineup right now is Morris/Thomas/Babb/Burton/Bowie.

Over the last four games, against decent competition, Holden is averaging 3 and 2. Our starting center is basically Daniel Edozie.

Jackson continues to look more comfortable out there. For some reason, he keeps reminding me of KJ Bluford, if KJ Bluford had been any good and not just a blind chucker.

Turns out Bowie didn't just have a bad game at the line against Indiana St. He just can't shoot free throws.

I assumed it was small sample size and/or his hips last season, but Naz has now shot poorly over his last 15 games going back two seasons. Really need him to turn that around. And cool it with the Stephen Curry 30 footers for no reason.

Thomas has been solid. Though that last turnover was unfortunate.

Really hope Young earns solid minutes for the rest of the season. I think what we've seen from Bowie and Holden is what we're going to get from them. Bowie has been decent, but overall its pretty underwhelming from the "5" position.

 

[CyForPresident]

Looking ahead and I'm not sure this team can put together an NCAA quality resume. Beating Cincy was really important.

Let's say this team finishes the non-con strong at 10-2. If Miami doesn't make the tourney, not a single one of those ten wins will be quality. And ISU scheduled really bad mid-major schools who have no shot of adding RPI depth like Georgia Southern or Chattanooga in years past. So ISU would need quality Big 12 wins, which at this point with our rebounding, I'd give zero chance of beating KU, BU, or WVU. That's 0-6. ISU would need to win 9 of the remaining 12 conference games just to get to 19-11. Yikes.

There is a lot of season and quality games left, but this could get away from ISU fast.

 

[rholtgraves]

Naz shoots poorly bc he takes bad shots. He thinks he is Steph Curry at times.