Petition Against Chaplain

[dmclone]

Re: Let's simplify this whole thing

Sad but true; if the chaplain were a Muslim cleric, the silence on this issue would be deafening. The four professors would be mum and the whole situation would somehow be perfectly acceptable.

I sure hope you're kidding? The four professors may be silent but every newspaper, TV station, and bible beater would be out protesting. It would be on the front of the DM Register.

A lot of you know that this person will have a Christian agenda but won't say it and think the idea is great. If it was the other way around and this person had a Islamic agenda you would be up in arms.

Defending religious freedom isn't just about defending your own religion or the one that is supported by 95% of Americans. Be honest with yourself and others(WWJD).

 

[joepublic]

Re: Let's simplify this whole thing

I sure hope you're kidding? The four professors may be silent but every newspaper, TV station, and bible beater would be out protesting. It would be on the front of the DM Register.

A lot of you know that this person will have a Christian agenda but won't say it and think the idea is great. If it was the other way around and this person had a Islamic agenda you would be up in arms.

Defending religious freedom isn't just about defending your own religion or the one that is supported by 95% of Americans. Be honest with yourself and others(WWJD).

You nailed it dmclone. Chizik's idea isn't to push the christian faith, but for many of the christian supporters of the chaplain idea, that's exactly what this is about. It always is with the christers.

 

[Cyclone62]

I would bet that you have never read anything written by Madison. Our liberal educational system has a vested interest in making sure people don't fully understand the Consititution.

I have read numerous Madison writings (The Federalist Papers are great) and they go into great detail on the rationale for why the Constitution is constructed as it is.

No one is saying that man is infallible but in previous posts you have proclaimed that "we cannot know what the framers were thinking"...that is just patently not true since the primary framer, Madison, wrote extensively on exactly what they were thinking and why they constructed the constitution as they did.

I commend the writings of Madison to you.

I personally found the Federalist Papers a bore, but oh well. I may have read Madison's writings, but I wouldn't have read them in the way you're suggesting, which is as good as not reading them altogether. Alright, we could come up with close approximations of their ideas from supporting works, on that, I agree with. At this point, I think we're splitting hairs. However, that doesn't change my view that because time, values, people, societies change, that we shouldn't take every aspect of the Constitution as a word-for-word literalization. Not making up things that blatently aren't there, but using the text(s) to formulate intent.

 

[PsychedClone]

Re: Let's simplify this whole thing

I sure hope you're kidding? The four professors may be silent but every newspaper, TV station, and bible beater would be out protesting. It would be on the front of the DM Register.

I'm quite certain the liberal TV and newspaper media outlets would jump right on that story. Maybe Michael Moore would even make a documentary out of it.

bible beater??? You've got issues; nothing that a couple of years in the military couldn't remedy. :baffled5wh:

 

[Cyclone62]

Re: Let's simplify this whole thing

I'm quite certain the liberal TV and newspaper media outlets would jump right on that story. Maybe Michael Moore would even make a documentary out of it.

bible beater??? You've got issues; nothing that a couple of years in the military couldn't remedy. :baffled5wh:

I think he has a point. I think Fox News would jump on the story as well, telling everyone how unpatriotic and anti-american the new ISU coach is. I also believe that most Christians would also be up in arms about it because it would be infringing on their right to a free religion in a public sphere. Maybe not you personally, but there would be many who would object to it.

 

[Klubber]

If it was announced that there would be a team Rabbi, Muslim equivilant, Shaman, Medicine Man, etc., Christians in the Ames area would go absolutely ballistic. There would probably be marches on campus and threatened protests of games.

The reason some people nowadays are so opposed to something like this to the point that they would create a petition is because we've seen what happens when religion in this country is left unchecked. Some Christians in the U.S. at every turn try to shove their religion down everyone's throat, even those who are non-religious. People have the freedom to practice religion but also have the right to be free from religion.

To me this issue is pretty simple. We don't need a team Chaplain because there are already plenty of Christian outreach programs available to anyone who would need one. Having a team Chaplain is just a backdoor way to endorse Christianity as the "official", or "preferred" team religion.

When I played football in high school, I was always annoyed by one of the coaches who would lead a prayer before the game. In that situation, you're basically forcing all players religious or not to participate in religion or otherwise look like their not being part of the team.

 

[Gary_ISU]

We have had a team chaplain for years

This is from the Ames Evangelical Free Church's website.

DAVID STAFF
Lead Pastor
David Staff, D.Min., is our lead pastor since 1993, previously serving churches in Indiana, North Dakota, and Colorado. He and Pamela are husband and wife for over 30 years. They have two grown children (Cameron, married to Janelle, and Briana, soon to be married to Josh). David is a graduate of Grace College and Dallas Theological Seminary (twice). His ministry responsibilities include preaching/teaching, ministry direction and staff coordination, and missions support. He has also served as team chaplain for the Iowa State Cyclone football team.

The idea of having a chaplain associated with the football team is nothing new. I assume Pastor Staff was a volunteer chaplain. I know he traveled with the team to games but other than that I am not sure what he did. Chizik will be bringing on a full time paid chaplain so there will certainly be some differences.
If people are worried about a paid chaplain at public university, they might have a point. But since the position will be funded by private and not public dollars, I do not see a problem.

If people are worried about what problems could arise because a Christian chaplain is affliliated with the football team, you are about 10 years or more late in your concerns. The fact that most people did not even know we had a chaplain indicates to me there have not been problems in the past. I personally think it is a very positive move by Chizik.

 

[ornryactor]

Re: We have had a team chaplain for years

Wow, very good work, sir!

If people are worried about what problems could arise because a Christian chaplain is affliliated with the football team, you are about 10 years or more late in your concerns. The fact that most people did not even know we had a chaplain indicates to me there have not been problems in the past.

That's exactly what I thought as soon as I read your first paragraph. This is actually kind of funny, considering the high-powered flamewar that's going on in this thread...

 

[Cyclone62]

Re: We have had a team chaplain for years

The fact that most people did not even know we had a chaplain indicates to me there have not been problems in the past.

It also indicates his paycheck didn't come from ISU. In fact, it indicates he didn't get a paycheck for his time at all.

 

[dmclone]

Re: Let's simplify this whole thing

bible beater??? You've got issues; nothing that a couple of years in the military couldn't remedy. :baffled5wh:

Everyone on this board now knows you were in the military. Congratulations, here is your cookie.

What does a bible beater have to do with the military?

 

[dmclone]

BTW-In case anyone thinks that this is liberal viewpoint, I've voted Republican since I was 18.

 

[dmclone]

Re: We have had a team chaplain for years

T
If people are worried about what problems could arise because a Christian chaplain is affliliated with the football team, you are about 10 years or more late in your concerns. The fact that most people did not even know we had a chaplain indicates to me there have not been problems in the past. I personally think it is a very positive move by Chizik.

I guess no one told Berryman.

 

[ISUFan22]

Liberal, conservative, democrat, republican. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.

All labels...and yes...they have meaning. However, labels too often carry stereotypes...many that are untrue. When someone says any of these labels - often times those hearing it immediately think of the stereotypes associated with them instead of the actual person(s) being referred to.

At the end of the day - we're all human and for much of what we discuss here - we're all Americans. I've grown tired of people sectioning each other off strictly by what they look like, they way they vote or what God they pray to.

Obviously ISU feels there is a need and value for this - otherwise it wouldn't be done. The person ISU employed is a human that happens to be Christian - at least that's how I view it. He's there to help humans in need - people that happen to be athletes.

I think this is a good discussion, don't get me wrong. I see why it's controversial. I just don't see the need for further beating of this label thing. And now an ISU/religious debate as spin sideways into one of politics and military. Ick.

It is what it is. I just hope there can be a shred of mutual respect extended from each side of this debate to the other. One that isn't dominated by labeling and the stereotypes and prejudices those labels carry.

 

[PsychedClone]

When I played football in high school, I was always annoyed by one of the coaches who would lead a prayer before the game. In that situation, you're basically forcing all players religious or not to participate in religion or otherwise look like their not being part of the team.

Then the U.S Senate protocol must really get you riled.

"At the beginning of each daily meeting of the U.S. Senate, the presiding officer accompanies the Senate chaplain to the rostrum for the opening prayer and leads the Senate in the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance."

Source: U.S. Senate: Visitors Center Home > The Senate in Session

Those poor Senators are forced to participate in religon or otherwise look like they are not part of the team. If that's not enough, then they get the Pledge of Allegiance shoved down their throats too. It's a sad state of affairs.

What would you do if you ever had to take an oath of office or testify in court? Curious minds would like to know.

 

[joepublic]

Those poor Senators are forced to participate in religon or otherwise look like they are not part of the team. If that's not enough, then they get the Pledge of Allegiance shoved down their throats too. It's a sad state of affairs.

Politicians are christian for the cameras and when it's time for re-election. If you think most of them follow Jesus' path, you're wrong.

 

[ornryactor]

Re: We have had a team chaplain for years

I guess no one told Berryman.

I think you're confusing a chaplain with a police officer... A chaplain's job has nothing to do with law enforcement or preventing criminal behavior. Some people, no matter how good their resources and role models, are bound and determined to be as stupid as possible and will get in trouble one way or another. As has been said... oh, about a bazillion times in this thread, the students typically have to approach the chaplain- the chaplain's job is not to watch like a hawk and forcibly swoop in at the first sign of trouble. That's a police officer.

 

[ornryactor]

Politicians are christian for the cameras and when it's time for re-election. If you think most of them follow Jesus' path, you're wrong.

What makes me giggle is that Mitt Romney proves both of those statements wrong simultaneously. It's not that I necessarily agree or disagree with either one, I just think it's funny that one guy can do that.

 

[dmclone]

Does this donor(s) decide who is appointed?

Would it be ok to distribute bibles as the players leave practice? What about the Koran (sp?)? It would all be optional.

I guess I don't understand why it has to be a chaplain and not a counselor?

Do you think it's because the private donor has more of an interest in promoting his religion?

 

[tigershoops31]

Re: Let's simplify this whole thing

I don't think the argument is about having a chaplain or not having one, but more about having a chaplain that advocates Christianity. At least, that's how I see the whole thing. I see no problem with the players having someone to confide in and that they can trust. And as long as all of the players feel fine with a Chirstian chaplain, I have no problem with that either. However, the instant that even one player feels that someone, anyone, on the staff is advocating a religion that is contradictory to theirs, they need a close look by outside people.

I think that's the problem with the thinking of people anymore..."if even one person thinks that something is contradictory to their beliefs then it need to be changed". As has been said many times in this thread, it is just another option. The people throwing a fit about it remind me of the person who is ticked off when they put a new soft serve ice cream machine into their cafeteria because it only serves vanilla and chocolate ice cream with no strawberry. Nobody is forcing you to eat the vanilla or chocolate, so at the very least you can go on eating your lunch like usual, and who knows...maybe you'll be hungry for chocolate or vanilla ice cream some time and give it a try where you might not have otherwise had the chance.

If we got rid of everything that "just one person" had a problem with we wouldn't have anything left. Even at Iowa State... if I had a problem with Family and Consumer Sciences being offered at ISU should we get rid of it? Or if we want to stick with religion, I'll guarantee you can find more than one person on campus that disagrees with every single religion class that is taught on campus. The difference is that they just won't sign up for the class rather than fight to get it removed. If enough people don't sign up for the class, eventually ISU will get rid of it. In the same way, if there really isn't a demand for the Chaplain and nobody goes to see him then I would guess they will do away with that position as well.

In my opinion, things should be made available because there is a demand FOR THEM, not gotten rid of just because there are a few people against them.

 

[jdoggivjc]

+ rep for you, tigerhoops

and yes, I'm responsible for making it 17171 (how that happened I'll never know...)