Lunch time question...who is the better PG

[CykoAGR]

I voted #2. However I think that a logical argument could be made for either one as close as the statistics are. It is tought to compare the numbers only as there are a lot of "outside" factors that can have an affect on these numbers such as a star player taking touches away from the PG or the other extreme where the PG has virtually no supporting cast. The second situation would drive down APG for sure

 

[cysocool]

Great thread... I'll take 1 because of the extra assist and steel for my point guard- real close though.

 

[cycloneSOULja]

I think assist/turnover ratio isn't always that great to look at, but I like comparing how many steals to how many turnovers... If a guy turns the ball over more, the best way to make up for it, is by getting more steals.

Player A turns the ball over 4 times/game, but gets 2.6 steals/game. That nets to 1.4 turnovers. Player B turns the ball over 2.95 times/game, but gets 1.5 steals/game, so that nets to 1.4 turnovers as well. Wash

With scoring, player A scores 1.15 points/shot. Player B scores 1.08 points/shot. If you throw in more details on 3 pointers, and weight 3 pointers as more than 2s, then the discrepency could be different, but we do not have that information. Player A is a better scorer.

The free throws are pretty much a wash because Player A makes like 3.3 free throws/game and Player B makes 2.7 free throws/game. I like guys that get to the line more, but if you shoot a higher percentage and don't make the other team pay, it isn't that helpful.

I would be interested in seeing the player's plus minus and clutch plus minus as well. But once we know who they are, I can look that up on my own. Based on the stats above, they are similar players.

 

[Cyclone1985]

I did not include W/L because that also relies on the talent around you and requires having a complete team. Is Koby Bryant a better player when he has less talent around him and has better stats or is he a better player when his stats are down and has a complete team around him? IMO- He is the same player but he wins because of who is around him. Was Jordan better before Pippen or with him?

I agree, and based on the stats you provided i made my decision. And for the record, Kobe makes the players around him better and same with Jordan. No way Pippen goes down as a great player without Jordan. Pretty sure we got into an argument during football about QB's making their receivers around them better. But that is an entire argument in its own.

I am just saying there are other things that i consider before determining a good player. One of them being managing the team, which statistics dont show w/o wins and losses. Or how about points scored in the last 3 mins (shows whether they run and hide at the end of games, ala Brackins or whether they step up and take over the game late).

 

[Yes13]

I did not include W/L because that also relies on the talent around you and requires having a complete team. Is Koby Bryant a better player when he has less talent around him and has better stats or is he a better player when his stats are down and has a complete team around him? IMO- He is the same player but he wins because of who is around him. Was Jordan better before Pippen or with him?

I hope that was a slip of the keys, and not how you actually think his name is spelt.:twitcy:

 

[Benny34]

Great thread... I'll take 1 because of the extra assist and steel for my point guard- real close though.

This is what did as well.

 

[heitclone]

I agree, and based on the stats you provided i made my decision. And for the record, Kobe makes the players around him better and same with Jordan. No way Pippen goes down as a great player without Jordan. Pretty sure we got into an argument during football about QB's making their receivers around them better. But that is an entire argument in its own.

I am just saying there are other things that i consider before determining a good player. One of them being managing the team, which statistics dont show w/o wins and losses. Or how about points scored in the last 3 mins (shows whether they run and hide at the end of games, ala Brackins or whether they step up and take over the game late).

Or one of the guys in the blind poll.

 

[bosco]

In my opinion I would say Player B. I want a PG to be able to score when needed and defend. Mainly I want him to be able to distribute and control the game which means high assists and low turnovers. Basically both players are very similar in that aspect but Player B has less TO's which means a few less possessions for the other team.

 

[Cyclone1985]

I think assist/turnover ratio isn't always that great to look at, but I like comparing how many steals to how many turnovers... If a guy turns the ball over more, the best way to make up for it, is by getting more steals.

Player A turns the ball over 4 times/game, but gets 2.6 steals/game. That nets to 1.4 turnovers. Player B turns the ball over 2.95 times/game, but gets 1.5 steals/game, so that nets to 1.4 turnovers as well. Wash

With scoring, player A scores 1.15 points/shot. Player B scores 1.08 points/shot. If you throw in more details on 3 pointers, and weight 3 pointers as more than 2s, then the discrepency could be different, but we do not have that information. Player A is a better scorer.

The free throws are pretty much a wash because Player A makes like 3.3 free throws/game and Player B makes 2.7 free throws/game. I like guys that get to the line more, but if you shoot a higher percentage and don't make the other team pay, it isn't that helpful.

I would be interested in seeing the player's plus minus and clutch plus minus as well. But once we know who they are, I can look that up on my own. Based on the stats above, they are similar players.

Quit using logic. Now add team's W/L and player A is clearly the better player.

I just read Tinsley averaged 32 mins a game. What is DG's average mins? Now re-do the statistics based on minutes played.

 

[Yes13]

Quit using logic. Now add team's W/L and player A is clearly the better player.

I just read Tinsley averaged 32 mins a game. What is DG's average mins? Now re-do the statistics based on minutes played.

You can't do that. What if DG played better playing less minutes, or Tinsley played worse playing more.

 

[clone4good]

If 1 is Tinsley and 2 is Diante its tough to compare the two because Diante got screwed his first 3 years here. I felt bad for the kid. Slow down offense, boring, get the ball to brackins or gilstrap, let them shoot, dribble around for 30 seconds. If he would have had Hoiberg type offense his first three years here he would be better than Tinsley. So I will go with player 2 (assuming thats Diante.)

 

[CyJack13]

I think assist/turnover ratio isn't always that great to look at, but I like comparing how many steals to how many turnovers... If a guy turns the ball over more, the best way to make up for it, is by getting more steals.

Player A turns the ball over 4 times/game, but gets 2.6 steals/game. That nets to 1.4 turnovers. Player B turns the ball over 2.95 times/game, but gets 1.5 steals/game, so that nets to 1.4 turnovers as well. Wash

With scoring, player A scores 1.15 points/shot. Player B scores 1.08 points/shot. If you throw in more details on 3 pointers, and weight 3 pointers as more than 2s, then the discrepency could be different, but we do not have that information. Player A is a better scorer.

The free throws are pretty much a wash because Player A makes like 3.3 free throws/game and Player B makes 2.7 free throws/game. I like guys that get to the line more, but if you shoot a higher percentage and don't make the other team pay, it isn't that helpful.

I would be interested in seeing the player's plus minus and clutch plus minus as well. But once we know who they are, I can look that up on my own. Based on the stats above, they are similar players.

Comparing steals to turnovers is not a really good way to analyze that. Just because a guy gets a lot of steals does not make a good defensive player. It could just mean that he takes a lot of risks which lead to more steal but also more open looks for the defense. So I wouldn't want a point guard who turns it over more and also gives up more open looks on defense. It's really hard to compare players defensive abilities from just looking at stats.

 

[cycloneSOULja]

Comparing steals to turnovers is not a really good way to analyze that. Just because a guy gets a lot of steals does not make a good defensive player. It could just mean that he takes a lot of risks which lead to more steal but also more open looks for the defense. So I wouldn't want a point guard who turns it over more and also gives up more open looks on defense. It's really hard to compare players defensive abilities from just looking at stats.

Did I say a player was a better defensive player because he got more steals? No. I said Player A makes up for his higher turnovers compared to Player B by getting more steals than Player B...

 

[CyJack13]

Did I say a player was a better defensive player because he got more steals? No. I said Player A makes up for his higher turnovers compared to Player B by getting more steals than Player B...

But if he's also giving up more open looks in the process of going for those steals he doesn't make up for it, he makes it even worse.

 

[tazclone]

I hope that was a slip of the keys, and not how you actually think his name is spelt.:twitcy:

When correcting one...you should make sure you spell correctly yourself...pretty sure it is "spelled" not "spelt" and yes a typo

 

[cycloneSOULja]

But if he's also giving up more open looks in the process of going for those steals he doesn't make up for it, he makes it even worse.

Player A led the Big 12 in steals one year and was 2nd the following year. Creating turnovers is huge in basketball.... Are you really going to argue that you do not want a player that gets steals?

 

[cycloneSOULja]

Player A's winshares are 8.1 vs Player B's winshares being 4.7.... #WINNING!

 

[Cyclone1985]

If 1 is Tinsley and 2 is Diante its tough to compare the two because Diante got screwed his first 3 years here. I felt bad for the kid. Slow down offense, boring, get the ball to brackins or gilstrap, let them shoot, dribble around for 30 seconds. If he would have had Hoiberg type offense his first three years here he would be better than Tinsley. So I will go with player 2 (assuming thats Diante.)

Your arugument actually just favored Player A since Tinsley played a slow it down, half court style game. Heck I think Floyd AND Eustacy would send atleast 2 guys back on every offensive possession to eliminate a fast break, thus eliminating Tinsley from ever getting an offensive board, thus making his RPG even more impressive. So add that to the stat list: Team PPG.

 

[tazclone]

I agree, and based on the stats you provided i made my decision. And for the record, Kobe makes the players around him better and same with Jordan. No way Pippen goes down as a great player without Jordan. Pretty sure we got into an argument during football about QB's making their receivers around them better. But that is an entire argument in its own.

I am just saying there are other things that i consider before determining a good player. One of them being managing the team, which statistics dont show w/o wins and losses. Or how about points scored in the last 3 mins (shows whether they run and hide at the end of games, ala Brackins or whether they step up and take over the game late).

1. I agree that Jordan and Kobe make players better but they did not win consitently until they got better supporting casts. I cannot think of one great player that won a championship by himself. It still takes a team in basketball.
2. I agree there are other factors but most that you mention are hard to quantify. I can tell you that both players have come through in the crunch and both players have failed at crunch time. I would say that player one has been better at crunch time but that is going off memory and I have nothing to back that up. Personally I think player two is better at managing the team but player one has more talent.

 

[CyJack13]

Player A led the nation in steals one year and was 2nd the following year. Creating turnovers is huge in basketball.... Are you really going to argue that you do not want a player that gets steals?

No, I'm going to argue that just because you get steals that does not mean you are a great defensive player or that you make up for your turnovers. If all things are equal than yes I want the player with more steals, but just from looking at the steal stats you can't tell if he's making up for his turnovers like you think you can.