Debate: Abortion?

Stormin

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2006
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Okay, you win. I didn't like my argument that much anyway. Abortion should be an issue for the states.



First, there is NO right of privacy in the US Constitution. And federal laws concerning privacy are illegitimate.

And, Stormin, your "nutrition program" argument is a red herring. The great majority of these programs are organized theft, to give jobs to more .gov "workers" administering these "programs".

In the US, malnourished children are generally the results of irresponsible parents, and the correct move would be to go after the parents as the criminals that they are, and to give their children to parents who will provide for them properly.

Hmmm.....then the Constitution does not protect us from unreasonable search and seizure, the police do not have to get search warrants, you can be denied due process under the law, according to you.

Seize children and give them to parents who will provide for them properly?? Do mean provide them properly for their physical needs??? Or their emotional needs??? And Who decides who is a proper parent?

And I don't agree that nutrition programs are created to give "more jobs to government workers". I guess Jesus advocated "organized theft" when he advocated helping the poor.
 

iceclone

Member
Nov 26, 2006
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Hmmm.....then the Constitution does not protect us from unreasonable search and seizure, the police do not have to get search warrants, you can be denied due process under the law, according to you.

Am I reading you corrrectly in that you are saying if there is no right to privacy, then there is no protection against unreasonable search and seizure? If so, I think that is a huge stretch. The Fourth Amendment explicitly addresses search and seizures:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.​

The argument for privacy rights is derived from the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. From Section VII of the Supreme Court Roe v. Wade decision (bolding is mine):

The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. …. [a long list of previous cases omitted].

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. The detriment that the State would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent. Specific and direct harm medically diagnosable even in early pregnancy may be involved. Maternity, or additional offspring, may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by child care. There is also the distress, for all concerned, associated with the unwanted child, and there is the problem of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it. In other cases, as in this one, the additional difficulties and continuing stigma of unwed motherhood may be involved. All these are factors the woman and her responsible physician necessarily will consider in consultation.

… [Paragraph arguing the states have a right to regulate abortion omitted]

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.​

A person can agree or disagree with this argument, but even if you disagree and claim that there is no right to privacy, the Fourth Amendment would still protect against unreasonable searches and seizures.
 

herbiedoobie

Active Member
Jan 3, 2007
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Hmmm.....then the Constitution does not protect us from unreasonable search and seizure, the police do not have to get search warrants, you can be denied due process under the law, according to you.

Seize children and give them to parents who will provide for them properly?? Do mean provide them properly for their physical needs??? Or their emotional needs??? And Who decides who is a proper parent?

And I don't agree that nutrition programs are created to give "more jobs to government workers". I guess Jesus advocated "organized theft" when he advocated helping the poor.

Ummm, no. There is a "little bitty difference" between "giving to the poor" and having the government steal your money in the form of taxes.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't pay your taxes; it also doesn't mean you are obligated to vote for enforced donations to the poor.

Who is a "proper" parent? Here's a clue: If your children are malnourished in modern US, you are a BAD parent. Criminally so.
 

herbiedoobie

Active Member
Jan 3, 2007
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Seven Supreme Court Justices took that position when they ruled on Roe v. Wade, so it must be considered a defendable position. However, many (most?) constitutional scholars (both conservative and liberal) have been extremely critical of the privacy argument. With my very limited legal knowledge, I am completely unable to find any right to privacy in the constitution, and I found Blackmun's argument not to be very convincing.

You're talking about the same institution that gave us Dred Scott.