College leaders plan a crackdown on NIL collectives

[cykadelic2]

I'm not sure the NCAA has any power to obtain tax records. There would be no reason for the IRS to go after students/parents and NIL collectives, because there's nothing illegal about those deals. Even if the NCAA is adamant that a NIL collective deal breaks their rules, it's only their rules that are broken, not tax law. The NCAA can't compel a business entity to produce their tax records either.

I agree.

What needs to be done IMO:

1) All NIL deals registered via the portal of an independent agency as proposed here: https://www.sportico.com/leagues/college-sports/2021/ncaa-nil-nonprofit-1234629640/. This agency would determine whether a deal is truly NIL (with no caps) under existing state laws/NCAA Guidelines or "pay for play" that doesn't have the athlete providing off the field NIL tangible services based on the individual marketability of the athlete at market value. A $400K annual deal for Nigel Pack is obviously pay for play. Any known or suspected violators would be turned over by the agency to state or Federal authorities.

2) Remove transfer immediate eligibility for those sports without shared schollies (Football, MBB and WBB). The only exceptions would be for athletes from programs ineligible for post season play. This was a stupid move to begin with and needs to be rescinded ASAP.

 

[Paddythefatty]

There may be a chance for t

I don’t know if that’s necessarily true. If the schools form a collective like the NFL, they can put some sort of limits on it on the basis that there is a significant portion of the players’ value is coming from the school brand. Make them employees and put in a collective bargaining agreement.

If a collective can get a salary cap, it’s possible to get limits on NIL income potentially. No idea if enough would even want that, and it would quite a legal battle, but there is a potential path to limitations and guardrails.

If they can’t limit what someone makes on commercials, etc. then it will be the Wild West. Lots of fat checks to post an ad for a company on social media. That might just be the way it is.

Employee status & CBAs are where I think all of this is heading, conferences/schools know it. They’ll gladly ride out the NIL situation until then but once their hand is forced, conferences break off from the NCAA & enforce their own rules. SEC will still operate with the biggest budget & sprinkle in NIL on top of it.

 

[SCNCY]

How do they do that, though? They can't compel these businesses/collectives to share details on their members, finances, and deals. They're private organizations. The NCAA holds zero power over them

You'd have to punish the schools and force the schools to separate themselves from the booster, or make the player ineligible for NCAA competition. The NCAA can still enforce rules upon its members to follow, and those members don't have to be a part of the NCAA. The problem has been that the NCAA hasn't enforced rules equally, and has let schools continue to break their rules unpunished.

 

[Paddythefatty]

I agree.

What needs to be done IMO:

1) All NIL deals registered via the portal of an independent agency as proposed here: https://www.sportico.com/leagues/college-sports/2021/ncaa-nil-nonprofit-1234629640/. This agency would determine whether a deal is truly NIL (with no caps) under existing state laws/NCAA Guidelines or "pay for play" that doesn't have the athlete providing off the field NIL tangible services based on the individual marketability of the athlete at market value. A $400K annual deal for Nigel Pack is obviously pay for play. Any known or suspected violators would be turned over by the agency to state or Federal authorities.

2) Remove transfer immediate eligibility for those sports without shared schollies (Football, MBB and WBB). The only exceptions would be for athletes from programs ineligible for post season play. This was a stupid move to begin with and needs to be rescinded ASAP.

Player gets paid 400k to play video games & show up to bday party with booster’s kid thru some app, how can they say that’s illegitimate without infringing on that players ability to earn? We live in an era where women get paid 10k to FaceTime a dude who’s masterbating while pouring milk on himself.

 

[Mr Janny]

I agree.

What needs to be done IMO:

1) All NIL deals registered via the portal of an independent agency as proposed here: https://www.sportico.com/leagues/college-sports/2021/ncaa-nil-nonprofit-1234629640/. This agency would determine whether a deal is truly NIL (with no caps) under existing state laws/NCAA Guidelines or "pay for play" that doesn't have the athlete providing off the field NIL tangible services based on the individual marketability of the athlete at market value. A $400K annual deal for Nigel Pack is obviously pay for play. Any known or suspected violators would be turned over by the agency to state or Federal authorities.

2) Remove transfer immediate eligibility for those sports without shared schollies (Football, MBB and WBB). The only exceptions would be for athletes from programs ineligible for post season play. This was a stupid move to begin with and needs to be rescinded ASAP.

What would the authorities want to do with Nigel Pack or deals like his? They aren't illegal. NCAA rules aren't laws. Life Wallet can sign a contract with whoever they want to represent them, give them a giant amount of money and have them perform zero work, if they want to. That's perfectly legal.

Don't hold your breath on the transfer rule being rescinded. That would be an invitation to a multitude of lawsuits. Not going to happen

 

[WhoISthis]

What would the authorities want to do with Nigel Pack or deals like his? They aren't illegal. NCAA rules aren't laws. Life Wallet can sign a contract with whoever they want to represent them, give them a giant amount of money and have them perform zero work, if they want to. That's perfectly legal.

Don't hold your breath on the transfer rule being rescinded. That would be an invitation to a multitude of lawsuits. Not going to happen

Employment and CBAs

 

[cykadelic2]

What would the authorities want to do with Nigel Pack or deals like his? They aren't illegal. NCAA rules aren't laws. Life Wallet can sign a contract with whoever they want to represent them, give them a giant amount of money and have them perform zero work, if they want to. That's perfectly legal.

Don't hold your breath on the transfer rule being rescinded. That would be an invitation to a multitude of lawsuits. Not going to happen

The Nigel Pack deal is clearly illegal according to State of FL NIL law (other state laws and NCAA Guidelines have similar language): An intercollegiate athlete at a postsecondary educational institution may earn compensation for the use of her or his name, image, or likeness. Such compensation must be commensurate with the market value of the authorized use of the athlete’s name, image, or likeness. To preserve the integrity, quality, character, and amateur nature of intercollegiate athletics and to maintain a clear separation between amateur intercollegiate athletics and professional sports, such compensation may not be provided in exchange for athletic performance or attendance at a particular institution and may only be provided by a third party unaffiliated with the intercollegiate athlete’s postsecondary educational institution.

Pack clearly doesn't provide $400K of annual tangible off-the-field NIL value to LifeWallet. It is clearly pay for play as are the vast majority of other deals exceeding $100K. There are obvious exceptions like Paige Bueckers.

And the NCAA needs to tell the bleeding hearts in favor of immediate eligibility to eff off. The vast majority of athletes have freedom of choice relative to their scholarship options and schools invest a vast amount of time and money in recruiting those athletes as a result of that freedom of choice. It is highly rational that in exchange for that freedom of choice and invested recruiting resources, that athletes sit out a year if they elect to transfer, especially now in light of being tampered and poached by other programs for NIL (actually pay for play) deals.

 

[Mr Janny]

Employment and CBAs

That's certainly a path forward, and I'm sure some schools might find that palatable, but I suspect many others would be in opposition. Not to mention that the players would have to agree to it, and I'm not sure that the players who can command the highest amount of money have much incentive to.

What so many people don't seem to understand is that the danger the NCAA faces from the court system revolves around the member schools offering the same benefits. It's the "level playing field", that some people want a return to, that is problematic. The Alston decision was narrow in scope, but Kavanaugh's opinion tipped their hand as to what was waiting for the NCAA in future cases.

The idea that all NCAA schools have decided that compensation is limited to the value of a scholarship is anticompetitive, and that's what is at risk in the court system.

If all fast food restaurants agreed with each other to not pay staff more than $20 per hour, it doesn't matter if $20 an hour is a fair rate. It's a violation of anti trust laws.

 

[Gunnerclone]

Player gets paid 400k to play video games & show up to bday party with booster’s kid thru some app, how can they say that’s illegitimate without infringing on that players ability to earn? We live in an era where women get paid 10k to FaceTime a dude who’s masterbating while pouring milk on himself.

Link?

 

[SuperTrooper]

KISS parapharsed to the NCAA: "You want this mess? You got this mess!!!"

 

[Mr Janny]

The Nigel Pack deal is clearly illegal according to State of FL NIL law (other state laws and NCAA Guidelines have similar language): An intercollegiate athlete at a postsecondary educational institution may earn compensation for the use of her or his name, image, or likeness. Such compensation must be commensurate with the market value of the authorized use of the athlete’s name, image, or likeness. To preserve the integrity, quality, character, and amateur nature of intercollegiate athletics and to maintain a clear separation between amateur intercollegiate athletics and professional sports, such compensation may not be provided in exchange for athletic performance or attendance at a particular institution and may only be provided by a third party unaffiliated with the intercollegiate athlete’s postsecondary educational institution.

Pack clearly doesn't provide $400K of annual tangible off-the-field NIL value to LifeWallet. It is clearly pay for play as are the vast majority of other deals exceeding $100K. There are obvious exceptions like Paige Bueckers.

And the NCAA needs to tell the bleeding hearts in favor of immediate eligibility to eff off. The vast majority of athletes have freedom of choice relative to their scholarship options and schools invest a vast amount of time and money in recruiting those athletes as a result of that freedom of choice. It is highly rational that in exchange for that freedom of choice and invested recruiting resources, that athletes sit out a year if they elect to transfer, especially now in light of being tampered and poached by other programs for NIL deals.

What is market value? Who gets to make that call? There's no oversight for that, currently. It's something that a court might weigh in on, but there would have to be a lawsuit first, and even if there was, it would be an uphill climb to convince a judge that a private business is not able to decide what is and isn't a market rate for an endorsement deal.
Not to mention other state NIL laws don't have the same provision as Florida, which is another reason why it's not likely anyone's going to go after Life Wallet.

I get why you don't like the current situation, but none of what you are suggesting is likely to happen at all. You're trying to put all of the water back behind the dam, after it's burst.

 

[SCNCY]

The Nigel Pack deal is clearly illegal according to State of FL NIL law (other state laws and NCAA Guidelines have similar language): An intercollegiate athlete at a postsecondary educational institution may earn compensation for the use of her or his name, image, or likeness. Such compensation must be commensurate with the market value of the authorized use of the athlete’s name, image, or likeness. To preserve the integrity, quality, character, and amateur nature of intercollegiate athletics and to maintain a clear separation between amateur intercollegiate athletics and professional sports, such compensation may not be provided in exchange for athletic performance or attendance at a particular institution and may only be provided by a third party unaffiliated with the intercollegiate athlete’s postsecondary educational institution.

Pack clearly doesn't provide $400K of annual tangible off-the-field NIL value to LifeWallet. It is clearly pay for play as are the vast majority of other deals exceeding $100K. There are obvious exceptions like Paige Bueckers.

And the NCAA needs to tell the bleeding hearts in favor of immediate eligibility to eff off. The vast majority of athletes have freedom of choice relative to their scholarship options and schools invest a vast amount of time and money in recruiting those athletes as a result of that freedom of choice. It is highly rational that in exchange for that freedom of choice and invested recruiting resources, that athletes sit out a year if they elect to transfer, especially now in light of being tampered and poached by other programs for NIL deals.

That's hard to determine, who is to say what the marketing value is of any person? If you truly believe in a free market, then once Pack and LifeWallet agreed to a contract, that became the market rate for his services. Now, the second part, athletic performance; to me, that would be maintaining certain stats (points per game, rebounds, etc) in order to receive the value of the contract, which I doubt any of these contracts have in them. At most, I would bet most contracts simply state that the athlete must be on the team.

 

[AuH2O]

But that is just related to salary from the revenue generated from NFL operations; basically an agreement on how to split revenue between owners and players. NIL would still operate outside of this system just like it does in the NFL through endorsement deals.

That's the basis for the NFL, but it doesn't mean that's the way it has to be in college. If the NFL felt like endorsements were jacking with competitive balance in a massive way that they thought hurt the league, they could add limits into a CBA. But it doesn't, so they have no need to pursue it.

IF all the universities decided that they wanted to put a limit on NIL as part of a collective bargaining agreement, they could do it. They would have a legal pathway to do it, as it is indisputable that the colleges are providing value to players' brands. The simple example is that based on draft position Armando Bacot for UNC was probably a G-League, maybe a 2-way guy. His NIL in a vacuum is not very valuable. If he was the exact same guy at Wake Forest he would have very little NIL value. But he's at UNC, so he's going to make a good chunk of cash. Or the merch example highlights the "school value" argument. Late in the Rhoads era there were a bunch of #52 ISU jerseys out there. Were people buying Jeremiah George jerseys that happened to have ISU on the front, or were they buying ISU jerseys that happened to have Jeremiah George's number on them?

Now I have no idea if there will be enough interest in schools to limit this, but if they chose to do it, they would try to do it through a CBA.

 

[AuH2O]

What is market value? Who gets to make that call? There's no oversight for that, currently. It's something that a court might weigh in on, but there would have to be a lawsuit first, and even if there was, it would be an uphill climb to convince a judge that a private business is not able to decide what is and isn't a market rate for an endorsement deal.
Not to mention other state NIL laws don't have the same provision as Florida, which is another reason why it's not likely anyone's going to go after Life Wallet.

I get why you don't like the current situation, but none of what you are suggesting is likely to happen at all. You're trying to put all of the water back behind the dam, after it's burst.

Yeah, good luck to anyone trying to prove that a company of their own decision pays Pack $X is violating the test of commensurate value. It's hard enough to do in one given case, let alone a bunch of these happening all at once, across different states with different laws.

It's going to be CBA or wild west. I don't see a scenario where anything in between can happen or be enforced.

 

[Mr Janny]

That's the basis for the NFL, but it doesn't mean that's the way it has to be in college. If the NFL felt like endorsements were jacking with competitive balance in a massive way that they thought hurt the league, they could add limits into a CBA. But it doesn't, so they have no need to pursue it.

IF all the universities decided that they wanted to put a limit on NIL as part of a collective bargaining agreement, they could do it. They would have a legal pathway to do it, as it is indisputable that the colleges are providing value to players' brands. The simple example is that based on draft position Armando Bacot for UNC was probably a G-League, maybe a 2-way guy. His NIL in a vacuum is not very valuable. If he was the exact same guy at Wake Forest he would have very little NIL value. But he's at UNC, so he's going to make a good chunk of cash. Or the merch example highlights the "school value" argument. Late in the Rhoads era there were a bunch of #52 ISU jerseys out there. Were people buying Jeremiah George jerseys that happened to have ISU on the front, or were they buying ISU jerseys that happened to have Jeremiah George's number on them?

Now I have no idea if there will be enough interest in schools to limit this, but if they chose to do it, they would try to do it through a CBA.

The NCAA schools can't just create a CBA out of thin air, though. There has to be another side to collectively bargain against, in the form of a union of the players. There's not a proposal for that on the table now, and I don't know how likely it is to ever be proposed because A) the players would have to agree to it and vote to form and B) it would be an acknowledgement by the schools that players are employees, and that's no slam dunk by any means

 

[cykadelic2]

What is market value? Who gets to make that call? There's no oversight for that, currently. It's something that a court might weigh in on, but there would have to be a lawsuit first, and even if there was, it would be an uphill climb to convince a judge that a private business is not able to decide what is and isn't a market rate for an endorsement deal.
Not to mention other state NIL laws don't have the same provision as Florida, which is another reason why it's not likely anyone's going to go after Life Wallet.

I get why you don't like the current situation, but none of what you are suggesting is likely to happen at all. You're trying to put all of the water back behind the dam, after it's burst.

Market value can be readily determined from market comps for the tangible off the field services (social media hits, personal appearances, etc.), if any, being provided by Pack to LifeWallet. If there are no or phony tangible off the field services being provided by Pack, that is an obvious pay for play deal. And if LifeWallet wants to challenge any disapproval of the Pack deal through the courts, tell them to go for it. I would highly doubt LifeWallet or "charity" collectives want to be dragged into court proceedings to litigate the market value of their alleged illegal NIL deals.

 

[jbhtexas]

The Nigel Pack deal is clearly illegal according to State of FL NIL law (other state laws and NCAA Guidelines have similar language): An intercollegiate athlete at a postsecondary educational institution may earn compensation for the use of her or his name, image, or likeness. Such compensation must be commensurate with the market value of the authorized use of the athlete’s name, image, or likeness. To preserve the integrity, quality, character, and amateur nature of intercollegiate athletics and to maintain a clear separation between amateur intercollegiate athletics and professional sports, such compensation may not be provided in exchange for athletic performance or attendance at a particular institution and may only be provided by a third party unaffiliated with the intercollegiate athlete’s postsecondary educational institution.

Pack clearly doesn't provide $400K of annual tangible off-the-field NIL value to LifeWallet. It is clearly pay for play as are the vast majority of other deals exceeding $100K. There are obvious exceptions like Paige Bueckers.

How much money would it cost a state to prosecute one of these cases? Is any state going to expend the time and money to prosecute? It seems to me that it would be very difficult to prove a voilation. I guess it's nice that these state laws have the "rough and tough" language, but from a practical standpoint, it seems rather useless. IMO, it is there to make eveybody feel good and give the appearance of integrity.

 

[cykadelic2]

Yeah, good luck to anyone trying to prove that a company of their own decision pays Pack $X is violating the test of commensurate value. It's hard enough to do in one given case, let alone a bunch of these happening all at once, across different states with different laws.

It's going to be CBA or wild west. I don't see a scenario where anything in between can happen or be enforced.

I highly doubt any CBA will be agreed upon that would cap off the field NIL deals beyond the employment contract for on the field services.

 

[AuH2O]

The NCAA schools can't just create a CBA out of thin air, though. There has to be another side to collectively bargain against, in the form of a union of the players. There's not a proposal for that on the table now, and I don't know how likely it is to ever be proposed because A) the players would have to agree to it and vote to form and B) it would be an acknowledgement by the schools that players are employees, and that's no slam dunk by any means

I think it would take schools to break from the NCAA and form a different collective, make athletes employees, then negotiate a CBA. The players' desire to do it is unknown, but like a lot of these, they negotiate a CBA and the very top value guys probably lose some earning potential while giving the guys that frankly have little to no NIL value some additional compensation through employment

In general I believe the CBA approach would be better for the long-term health of the college sports/media industry. Are guys going to possibly limit earning potential at the top to help ensure future players have scholarship, employment and NIL opportunities years down the road? I doubt it.

 

[cykadelic2]

How much money would it cost a state to prosecute one of these cases? Is any state going to expend the time and money to prosecute? It seems to me that it would be very difficult to prove a voilation. I guess it's nice that these state laws have the "rough and tough" language, but from a practical standpoint, it seems rather useless. IMO, it is there to make eveybody feel good and give the appearance of integrity.

The independent agency that I mentioned before would nullify phony deals (like Pack's) and tell LifeWallet to go to court if they want Pack eligible to play with that deal. The burden would be on LifeWallet to prove Pack's eligibility, not on the States. I doubt LifeWallet or "charity" collectives would go to court to fight for those deals.