Could someone help explain how this works?

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2speedy1

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I've always heard the continued dropping of men's sports is because of and only because of Title IX, where I believe it is a majority of the cause, I know that Iowa State has taken it a step farther and could probably add a men's sport back like Baseball without violating Title IX.

My question is, is it really about that? Is there much more to it? I see so many other Big XII programs with more men's sports and less women's sports without a problem, considering ISU is the only one without Baseball I don't understand why we have cut so many men's sports.

Just for one example look at Ok St. They have all the men's sports ISU has plus they also have Baseball and Tennis, while the women they have 2 less sports total, not having Volleyball, Gymnastics and Swimming & Diving, while only adding Equestrian. Considering these women's sports are rather large teams with many scholarships, how do they make it work not having them and keeping things equal? How do these other Big XII schools get by with all the extra men's sports and in some cases many less women's sports?

This isn't a complaint of having so many women's sports, it is more of a complaint of having so few men's. And even with that not so much of a complaint as more just trying to get an understanding. I know budgeting comes into it some, but that alone can't be the reason we have dropped men's swimming & diving, gymnastics, baseball and tennis (maybe more) in recent memory while keeping the women's counterpart. Not to mention other schools having rowing, lacrosse and hockey etc. Of all these I wish Baseball would, and I think should, be brought back.

So if you have an explanation as to how this works and how other schools are doing it, I really would like to know how it works. I know there is a formula and such but I just don't know how that formula seems to be different for different schools.
 
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SoapyCy

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Title 9 says you need equal weight between the gender in sports. In ISU's case, we've never really had a lot of money because the largest driver of revenue, football, was never very good. So while we meet Title 9 rules, we haven't really had extra money to throw around for additional sports that don't generate any revenue. It's a matter of money, not a perfect balance like other schools might have.
 

Acylum

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I don't believe football is used in the equation. That's all I've got.
 

kingcy

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I don't believe football is used in the equation. That's all I've got.

I think it is. It shouldn't be because of the number of players and it is the sport that makes others possible. With out college football there would be no other sports, except maybe mens Basketball, and schools are lucky to break even with that.
 

Acylum

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I think it is. It shouldn't be because of the number of players and it is the sport that makes others possible. With out college football there would be no other sports, except maybe mens Basketball, and schools are lucky to break even with that.

You may be right, but then the formula pretty much negates it or something. I may be totally off base, but I seem to recall something like that.
 

2speedy1

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Title 9 says you need equal weight between the gender in sports. In ISU's case, we've never really had a lot of money because the largest driver of revenue, football, was never very good. So while we meet Title 9 rules, we haven't really had extra money to throw around for additional sports that don't generate any revenue. It's a matter of money, not a perfect balance like other schools might have.
But what exactly does "equal weight" mean?
 

kingcy

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You may be right, but then the formula pretty much negates it or something. I may be totally off base, but I seem to recall something like that.

Under Title IX there are no sport exclusions or exceptions. Individual participation opportunities (number of student-athletes participating rather than number of sports) in all men's and women's sports are counted in determining whether an institution meets Title IX participation standards. The basic philosophical underpinning of Title IX is that there cannot be an economic justification for discrimination. The institution cannot maintain that there are revenue productions or other considerations that mandate that certain sports receive better treatment or participation opportunities than other sports.
 
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2speedy1

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Basically that explains nothing, its like everything is included but nothing is included, everything counts and nothing does, it has to be equal but it doesn't, that q/a doesn't explain much. If its about equality then how is it calculated, how can one school have 5 men's sports and 9 women's, and the other have 7 men's and 7 women's, and of those women's sports being lower scholarship count sports and all be considered equal and compliant?
 

benman82

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I believe Iowa State is well within title 9 issues to add a men's sport, but the team loses money. One key to schools having morte mens than womens sports is how running scholarships are counted. There is cross country, indoor track, and outdoor track. The same person can count as a scholarship in each of these. So if you have 50 girls on all three teams you've made room for other mens sports.
 

2speedy1

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I believe Iowa State is well within title 9 issues to add a men's sport, but the team loses money. One key to schools having morte mens than womens sports is how running scholarships are counted. There is cross country, indoor track, and outdoor track. The same person can count as a scholarship in each of these. So if you have 50 girls on all three teams you've made room for other mens sports.
But as with Iowa State as is with most schools we have both men's and women's indoor and outdoor track as well as cross country, so don't those just all cancel each other out? and turn into a wash in the end?
 

Yellow Snow

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OP has a very good question. I'd like to know how it all works as well.

Not necessarily because I think we need to add sports, but how is "equality" between men's and women's sports determined?
 

BikeSkiClone

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IIRC, it's not strictly about having the same number of men's and women's athletes/scholarships. It's a matter of equal proportion scholarships (roughly, or year to year would be a nightmare) based on the male:female ratio of the student body (potentially available participants). If a school is approximately 50/50 M/F, you see more women's sports to make up for the 85 football scholarships as no other sport comes close to that amount.

If a school were (as an extreme) 80/20 M/F, they would be in compliance even with significantly more men's scholarships than women's scholarships in athletics.

Edit, from the FAQ shared above:
1. For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:
  1. Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;
 

2speedy1

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IIRC, it's not strictly about having the same number of men's and women's athletes/scholarships. It's a matter of equal proportion scholarships (roughly, or year to year would be a nightmare) based on the male:female ratio of the student body (potentially available participants). If a school is approximately 50/50 M/F, you see more women's sports to make up for the 85 football scholarships as no other sport comes close to that amount.

If a school were (as an extreme) 80/20 M/F, they would be in compliance even with significantly more men's scholarships than women's scholarships in athletics.

Edit, from the FAQ shared above:
That clarifies it some, thanks....so it all boils down to enrollment men/women ratio. Which in the last decade I honestly haven't kept up with at ISU to know how that ratio has worked out with the explosion of enrollment.
Again, really the only sport I wish we still had or would add back is baseball, for several reasons, we were decent in baseball and have a good club team, and every other school has Baseball. Hockey was always a dream but with the lack of Big XII schools and the cost I don't ever see that happening. It would be nice to see them all back and included on both sides but I realize the cost is entirely prohibitive.