Who is Iowa State's GOAT MBB player?
- Thread starter cyhawk55
- Start date
What stats are you going off of?
He was the most dominant player for the most dominant team in ISU history.
Guy shot over 46% for two teams that were some of the lousiest in ISU history, followed it up with one of the most efficient seasons in our history with a PER of 121.2.
Here's a stat: 2000 was the only elite eight team in Iowa State history.
You can take your 4-year guys' stats and convolude the argument. Another stat: if Fizer played his senior year, he would be our leading all time scorer, beating Grayer by about 300 points.
Fact is, people that know basketball understand that Fizer is our greatest, with Tinsley and Grayer coming in a close second.
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That's not me. I have Barry Stevens. Northwoodscy has Bobby Stevens, whoever that is.
I can't comment on those I never saw play, so Don Smith, Hercle Ivy & Gary Thompson are probably getting the shaft on my list. Anyway:
1. Fizer
2. Grayer
3. Hoiberg
4. Stevens
5. Tinsley
6. Hornacek (best pro, but way overshadowed by Stevens and Grayer at ISU)
1. Fizer
2. Grayer
3. Hoiberg
4. Stevens
5. Tinsley
6. Hornacek (best pro, but way overshadowed by Stevens and Grayer at ISU)
Zaid Abdul-Aziz Career:
22.3 PPG (#1 on ISU All-Time list)
13.7 RPG (#1 on ISU All-Time list)
54 career Double-Doubles (#1 on ISU All-Time list)
Marcus Fizer Career:
18.9 PPG
7.4 RPG
You wanna talk about being on lousy teams? Anything pre 1980s is the definition of lousy ISU basketball.
Zaid Abdul-Aziz was not a 4 year player, he was a 3 year player just like Fizer, as freshmen couldn't play.
Abdul-Aziz:
-One of two ISU players to earn First Team All-Conference honors three times (the other was Jeff Grayer)
-All-American 1968
-1968 Big 8 Player of the year
-1968 NBA Draft: #5 pick overall
-10 year NBA career
I'm absolutely NOT saying Marcus Fizer wasn't dominate, hell look at my original post. But to think that averaging a double-double over the course of your whole CAREER isn't dominate, I don't know what is. 54 double-doubles! Melvin Ejim only got 32 in 4 years while playing many more games in a season. I understand basketball, but it doesn't take a basketball wiz to see who was the more dominate player between those two.
http://www.cyclones.com/pdf9/2534266.pdf?SPID=4252&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=10700
http://www.cyclones.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10700&ATCLID=801789
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I'm too young to remember most of these guys. I've seen old games of Fizer and Tinsley, but that's about as far back as I can go.
Obviously this whole debate depends on the criteria. Most dominant? Probably Zaid or Fizer. Most valuable to his specific team? Zaid, Royce, Hoiberg and several others have cases for that. Best stats? Grayer, Zaid and Stevens. It all depends.
Obviously this whole debate depends on the criteria. Most dominant? Probably Zaid or Fizer. Most valuable to his specific team? Zaid, Royce, Hoiberg and several others have cases for that. Best stats? Grayer, Zaid and Stevens. It all depends.
I don't know how anyone could say that Kelvin Cato was one of our 12 best ever. The guy played for a year and a half and all he could do was block shots and commit fouls. He was drafted because of his size and that's it. He wasn't even close to the type of player that Loren Meyer or Victor Alexander were.
Here are my top 12 in order based mainly off of career stats from Cyclones.com. If Fizer was a four-year player I would have had him #1. I also did not include current players, but I am sure that Niang will make this list some day.
1. Jeff Grayer (1st in career scoring with 2,502; 5th in rebounds with 910; 5th in steals with 199)
2. Fred Hoiberg (3rd in career scoring with 1,993; 3rd in steals with 207; 8th in rebounds with 748; 10th in assists with 350)
3. Jeff Hornacek (1st in career assists with 665; 1st in steals with 211; 18th in career scoring with 1,313)
4. Marcus Fizer (5th in career scoring with 1,830; most points in single season with 844; 10th in rebounds with 716)
5. Victor Alexander (4th in career scoring with 1,892; 4th in blocks with 120; 6th in rebounds with 810)
6. Jamaal Tinsley (most assists in single season with 244; 8th in career assists with 431; 6th in steals with 177)
7. Barry Stevens (2nd in career scoring with 2,190; 15th in steals with 132)
8. Melvin Ejim (12th in career scoring with 1,643; 2nd in rebounds with 1,051; 10th in steals with 146)
9. Zaid Abdul-Aziz (10th in career scoring with 1,672; 3rd in rebounds with 1,025)
10. Julius Michalik (6th in career scoring with 1,825; 16th in rebounds with 666; 13th in steals with 134)
11. Dean Uthoff (1st in career rebounds with 1,233)
12. Kelvin Cato (most blocks in a single season with 118... head and shoulder above 2nd place Homan with 73)
1. Jeff Grayer (1st in career scoring with 2,502; 5th in rebounds with 910; 5th in steals with 199)
2. Fred Hoiberg (3rd in career scoring with 1,993; 3rd in steals with 207; 8th in rebounds with 748; 10th in assists with 350)
3. Jeff Hornacek (1st in career assists with 665; 1st in steals with 211; 18th in career scoring with 1,313)
4. Marcus Fizer (5th in career scoring with 1,830; most points in single season with 844; 10th in rebounds with 716)
5. Victor Alexander (4th in career scoring with 1,892; 4th in blocks with 120; 6th in rebounds with 810)
6. Jamaal Tinsley (most assists in single season with 244; 8th in career assists with 431; 6th in steals with 177)
7. Barry Stevens (2nd in career scoring with 2,190; 15th in steals with 132)
8. Melvin Ejim (12th in career scoring with 1,643; 2nd in rebounds with 1,051; 10th in steals with 146)
9. Zaid Abdul-Aziz (10th in career scoring with 1,672; 3rd in rebounds with 1,025)
10. Julius Michalik (6th in career scoring with 1,825; 16th in rebounds with 666; 13th in steals with 134)
11. Dean Uthoff (1st in career rebounds with 1,233)
12. Kelvin Cato (most blocks in a single season with 118... head and shoulder above 2nd place Homan with 73)
I may have snubbed Ivy (8th in career scoring, 14th in career assists), but I'll stick with my list for now.
Some of Hornacek's numbers
27 games 5.4 ppg 3 apg
29 games 10 ppg 6.8 apg
34 games 12.5 ppg 4.8 apg
33 games 12.6 ppg 6.6 apg
Zaid played against different competition. Different time, different game, different officiating, and especially different *ahem non-existent ahem* weight-lifting regimens. I tend to severely discount accomplishments of far yesteryear because the game was being dominated by men taking advantage of playing against frail pasties night in and night out.
Additionally, rebounding numbers are inflated by a by-gone era. See: http://www.encyclonepedia.com/?p=3344#more-3344
Old codgers, feel free to lose your $hit at that notion, but it's true.
Fizer was an undersized (6'7" maybe) power forward who physically imposed his will against taller, more physically-able players. I am positive the talent Zaid played against paled in comparison to Fizer's competition.
This is dumb. If you gave both Fizer and Zaid a rating out of ten and their opponents a rating out of ten it would all equate. If Fizer scores a 9/10 and his competition is a 7/10 and Zaid was a 7/10 and his opponents were 5/10... it's all equal. This isn't Fizer going back and playing with late 1960s players or Zaid time traveling and playing with early 2000s players. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. They were both dominate for their time. Are you now going to try and tell me Babe Ruth isn't one of the greatest power hitters of all-time because he didn't face pitchers throwing 98 mph? Please...
THIS is dumb. What I'm saying is Fizer was similarly dominant against superior competition. If you want to use stats as a measurement, realize that there are weakening components that strongly contributed to that era's best players getting them. There's no proof that Zaid or a lot of men from his era would be nearly as effective against the type of consistent, well-balanced competition of today.
And I'm not discussing Babe Ruth; it has nothing to do with basketball.
