Embarrassing question

[dosry5]

Myth #3 - Shotguns don't overpenetrate

Not true. Any shotgun that won't penetrate your walls, will not effectively disable a bad guy. I have a friend who walked away from three rounds of 12 ga #7 shot at point blank range to the chest. He called the ambulance and sat down at the kitchen table and waited for them to come. He was at his kids' band concert the next night.



Thanks!

Ouch. That had to be worse than getting shot! :yes:

 

[DaddyMac]

I'm an Ikes member. Obviously the Des Moines Chapter doesn't have a club. But I'm pretty sure that the Ankeny one does.

I'm also relatively sure that Gun Club in Waukee is still open. Don't know if they deal with handguns or rifles. They may only do sporting clays (shotgun). They were open last year - they at a Shoot4theCure event out the to sponsor Cystic Fibrosis.

New Pioneer Clay Target Center

There's also a range up by Elkhart. The guy who runs it does the classes for concealed weapons permit classes.

C.A.P.S. Iowa

I don't know about the ability to walk-in to any of these places.

 

[DaddyMac]

Myth #3 - Shotguns don't overpenetrate

Not true. Any shotgun that won't penetrate your walls, will not effectively disable a bad guy. I have a friend who walked away from three rounds of 12 ga #7 shot at point blank range to the chest. He called the ambulance and sat down at the kitchen table and waited for them to come. He was at his kids' band concert the next night.

That's why I use 4's. :wink:

But I have to ask, why the need to take 3 rounds to the chest?

IMO - if anyone is so afraid they insist on having a gun for protection - a shotgun is not the way to go. Particularly if you've never handed one. If for no other reason than they are too bulky. Most commercially available SG will have anywhere from a 22" - 28" barrel. Add in the stock and chamber and you're weilding around the better part of 40" of weapon. If you're getting it purely for home protection - take a broom and choke up on it and go walking about your hallways and give it some thought on how that's going to work.

Some form of handgun - of which I know very little about - is probably the best option. Compact, easier to handle, etc. To disagree with my good friend Mr Phaedrus - I don't think you need to have the most dropping power available (weekend stays in Kabul notwithstanding). But please, please, please - get a trigger lock or gun safe and keep the ammo elsewhere. I hear more about kids shooting themselves than I do about the guy who ran off some cat burglar with his Glock.

For me, mine are all downstairs, with locks on them. I have my softball bat in the bedroom closet.

 

[Phaedrus]

That's why I use 4's. :wink:

But I have to ask, why the need to take 3 rounds to the chest?

A unique combination of incompetence and lack of persistence by the person who intended to murder him.

If you must use a shotgun, I'd go #2s or better. OO buck is ideal, for shotgun self-defense. With the caveat that it doesn't nullify all the reasons I don't like shotguns.

 

[DaddyMac]

A unique combination of incompetence and lack of persistence by the person who intended to murder him.

If you must use a shotgun, I'd go #2s or better. OO buck is ideal, for shotgun self-defense. With the caveat that it doesn't nullify all the reasons I don't like shotguns.

Ah - that makes some (unfortuante) sense.

But still, 3 at near point blank? Was the guy using skeet loads or something? Sorry - but I have to feel my 3" mags are going to make a mess of things - even with 7's in there.

Oh well, thankfully your friend is alright.

Stay safe....

 

[Cyznutz]

Myth #3 - Shotguns don't overpenetrate

Not true. Any shotgun that won't penetrate your walls, will not effectively disable a bad guy. I have a friend who walked away from three rounds of 12 ga #7 shot at point blank range to the chest. He called the ambulance and sat down at the kitchen table and waited for them to come. He was at his kids' band concert the next night.

I would have used being shoot as an excuse to get out of going to the concert.:yes:

 

[Angie]

And, please, could we keep the political comments out of this thread? If you'd like to debate technique, great! I'm not the be all, end all of defense, but this could be a useful thread for those with honest questions about home defense.

Please heed what Phaedrus has written here. Any more political comments (some have already been edited) will get this moved to the Cave.

 

[Phaedrus]

So, you've decided to buy a gun. Now, what do you DO with it? If you are the great majority of gun owners in America, you "might" take it hunting once or twice, and then let it collect dust/rust in the closet, or in a dresser drawer, or even in a safe.

Or.... you could choose to gain some proficiency and have a little fun in the meantime. And for that, you need to get involved in some "gun games." Gun games are fun, safe, and build people into competent shooters.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8bJ3TLEbZw&feature=PlayList&p=6506BF2A40993B40&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=35]YouTube - Lead Dispencer World Record Stage Run Speed Shooting[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wPiWiCPuLU]YouTube - Texas 3 Gun Match - Bullet Hole Range[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w72CKogD_8I&feature=channel_page]YouTube - American Zootshooters Association Innagural Match![/ame]

By the way, the guy with the box in the hand following the shooter is holding an audible timer, which automatically judges your speed-score. Your score is a combination of speed, accuracy plus how closely you follow range rules.

If someone is interested in playing, most gun games will let you just show up, pay for your ammunition, and someone will gladly lend you guns/equipment for the first couple times.

 

[cyco2000]

This looks to be a fun time in Nevada:

Welcome to Scorpion Gulch - Home of the Zen Shootists 



Phaedrus: Is the late May shooting help available to newbies only?

 

[Phaedrus]

This looks to be a fun time in Nevada:

Welcome to Scorpion Gulch - Home of the Zen Shootists*



Phaedrus: Is the late May shooting help available to newbies only?

Well, we would have to find a place to shoot, if it's going to be more than one or two people.

But otherwise, I wouldn't mind at all.

 

[cyco2000]

I've got 5 acres near the new ISU Dairy Farm. I wonder how they'd react to some CFers throwing some lead in the air...

 

[Phaedrus]

Hey, as long as you are out of city limits, and have solid backstop, they really can't say anything, in Iowa.

I have a friend who bought a bunch of round bales and made a "shoot-house", but he doesn't like groups coming over. Round bales make a nice backstop for the typical flat Iowa shooting ranges.

 

[brianhos]

Hey that's not so embarrassing. I'm 40 and have been thinking it is time to buy that first gun.

I just got the little yellow slip of paper that allows me to purchase a handgun the other day. Now I need to figure out what to get.

 

[Landshark]

Honestly, I usually recommend that people get a 16" barrelled AR15 with a light mounted on it. However, because of the current hysteria, they are just too expensive. Think $2000 for a gun that cost $800 just a few months ago, expensive, if you can find one at all.

So what I now recommend is a lever-action carbine in either 30-30 or .357/.44 magnum. You know, the kind that cowboys in the movies have?

Which goes counter to most conventional wisdom concerning home defense guns. While I don't recommend against pistols, most people who buy them for defense don't get the training/practice that they really need to be proficient.

And shotguns? Probably one of the worst choices for home defense, despite the conventional wisdom that says that they are best.

Without going into too much detail, the current thinking is that short rifles firing the smaller rounds are safer, more lethal, and easier to employ than shotguns.

Myth #1 - Criminals will be scared off by the racking of the slide.

Not true. The racking of the slide just reveals your location, and that you are mentally unprepared to use the gun. Not really that effective.

Myth #2 - Shotguns don't need to be aimed as precisely as rifles

Not true. At in home ranges, shotguns don't pattern, the shot doesn't have time to expand enough. So the shot all hits in the exact same place. Just like a rifle round, only less effective.

Myth #3 - Shotguns don't overpenetrate

Not true. Any shotgun that won't penetrate your walls, will not effectively disable a bad guy. I have a friend who walked away from three rounds of 12 ga #7 shot at point blank range to the chest. He called the ambulance and sat down at the kitchen table and waited for them to come. He was at his kids' band concert the next night.

Any shotgun round capable of penetrating a person, such as slugs or buckshot, will overpenetrate worse than high speed rifle rounds, such as the 5.56mm AR15 round, which is one of the better non-overpenetrating rounds. (They are light and fast, and tend to bleed off energy quickly.) The worst overpenetrating rounds are pistol rounds and shotgun slugs, believe it or not.

Myth - Shotguns are easy to use.

Not true - When under stress, it is very easy to short-stroke a shotgun. That means the gun is now completely jammed, and unjamming a short-stroked shotgun usually requires a full takedown of the gun. It is less difficult and a much more positive action to take the safety off an AR15 or lever in a .30-30 round.

Fact - The sights and ergonomics on the typical carbine are superior to the typical shotgun, making precision shots easier, which lessens the chances of hitting someone you don't want.

There is more, but that's it, in a nutshell.

One of the things I love about my M4 carbine, is that I can clear it, take the magazine out and it is totally safe, should God forbid, someone unwanted handle it. I don't have to secure the gun as much as I need to secure the loaded magazines.

One more thing: If you buy a gun, put a light on it. They sell the lights and the mounts at all the sporting goods store. You will use the light much more than you'll probably ever use the gun.

And, please, could we keep the political comments out of this thread? If you'd like to debate technique, great! I'm not the be all, end all of defense, but this could be a useful thread for those with honest questions about home defense.

Thanks!

Awesome info, I will remember this. I'm a 36 year old family man and have been (for the first time ever) thinking about getting a gun. I of course want the best training possible.

I heard Deace talking on his show how he was going to Johnston a couple weeks ago to get trained. Not sure how they went?

Thanks!!!

 

[Phaedrus]

I just got the little yellow slip of paper that allows me to purchase a handgun the other day. Now I need to figure out what to get.

In a nutshell, get what fits your hand. Unless you want to shoot competition .22 LR, get a useful caliber. 9mm, .40 and .45 are all useful semi-auto calibers. .38, .357 and .45 Colt are all extremely useful revolver calibers. The .44 mag and larger calibers CAN be useful, but only in specific cases.

And it depends on what you want to do. If you want to hunt with a handgun, get something that's legal in Iowa, i.e. .357 or bigger, and not a bottle-necked cartridge.

Take your time, try out every kind of gun you can. Find a gun seller who will be patient and work with you. Stay away from anyone who says "Fill in the blank" guns are all junk, or tells too many stories.

And PM me if you hear something that doesn't sound right, or you think you're in love with a particular gun. I might be able to provide some insights, as I've made most of the mistakes in buying guns, already...:yes:

 

[CYKOFAN]

I'm 99% sure there's a firing range just north of Des Moines and west of Polk City. I believe it's called the Olofson firing range and I think it's run by the state or county conservation commission. I'd try calling them.

 

[ISUAlum2002]

I just got the little yellow slip of paper that allows me to purchase a handgun the other day. Now I need to figure out what to get.

I just got mine recently as well, a few weeks ago. We're going to head to the gun show at the Fairgrounds on the weekend of the 25th this month so we can have a variety of makes and models available to look at and handle.

I'm probably looking at getting a 9mm of some type. Don't need a hand cannon....

 

[Phaedrus]

Awesome info, I will remember this. I'm a 36 year old family man and have been (for the first time ever) thinking about getting a gun. I of course want the best training possible.

I heard Deace talking on his show how he was going to Johnston a couple weeks ago to get trained. Not sure how they went?

Thanks!!!

As I stated in my last paragraph, I like magazine-fed semi-autos for families with kids. Most little kids aren't strong enough to manipulate the slide to load them, and they can be rendered safe easier than a revolver. Especially for families with little boys, you cannot be too careful.

I think it's probably the appropriate time to bring up that "having a gun" is probably the least important part of home defense. Having good lighting, locks, something to secure your windows, and a family plan to avoid a home intruder are more important. And a dog, if you can.

 

[Cycofan1]

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[Phaedrus]

I just got mine recently as well, a few weeks ago. We're going to head to the gun show at the Fairgrounds on the weekend of the 25th this month so we can have a variety of makes and models available to look at and handle.

I'm probably looking at getting a 9mm of some type. Don't need a hand cannon....

And there is nothing wrong with that. I'd go out on a limb, and say that 90%+ of all gun owners/shooters are best served with the Glock 19.

Affordably priced, fits most peoples' hands and easy to manipulate/fire. And durable nearly beyond belief.

Do yourself a favor, though. Surf on over to www.gunsamerica.com and www.gunbroker.com and find out how much the pistol you're interested in is going for on the auction market. Gun shows are notorious for overpricing. Add $20 or so to the auction price for shipping and handling, when you're making your price comparisons, though.