NBA: NBA Off-season Thread

[CyJack13]

Bosh wasn't that kind of a defender when he first got to Miami.

And CLE is a different team. They have actually good centers that actually can play defense next to Love in Tristan Thompson and Timofey Mozgov.

Bosh's D did get extremely good in the last couple years in Miami though, no doubt. Also there is no doubt that Love is superior in every other category of basketball.

They aren't giving up any resources to keep Love. They can't sign anyone else if they let him go.

A sign and trade? Who are they going to get. And you can't use draft picks, because LeBron isn't letting them do that. He doesn't give a **** about draft picks and he shouldn't at this point. CLE has no reason to wait 4 years for rookies to develop. Especially since they traded Wiggens away.


But you're gonna tell me you are going to trade Kevin Love for depth? For depth? Get out of here with that, it's just absurd. The Cavs have plenty of depth everywhere, it's one of the reasons they're going to have to pay a fortune in luxury taxes.

The only time they don't appear to have depth is when Varejoa, Love, and Irving are all out for the season. That narrative is not applicable to the healthy team they will have next season.

Bosh wasn't a good defensive player prior to getting Miami, but he was good from Day 1 in Miami. The Heat were the fifth best defensive team their first year together and they were 4.2 points/100 possessions better when Bosh was on the floor in the regular season, and 9.4 points/100 possessions better with him on the floor in the playoffs in 2011.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/7964/chris-bosh-no-longer-just-a-one-way-player

I don't think Cleveland is particularly deep at all. They are deep at the four and five with Mozgov, Varaejoa, Thompson and Love, but you can only play two of those guys at once and really LeBron is probably the best option at four on the team. Their wing/backcourt depth is terrible. Irving is great but is proving to be very injury prone. Aside from him you have Shumpert and Smith, that's it for quality perimeter guys. That's not good depth. All the Cavs have to offer is the mini midlevel exception too so it's going to be tough to add guys any way besides a trade and Brendan Haywood and a late first round pick is not going to bring much back either.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Bosh wasn't a good defensive player prior to getting Miami, but he was good from Day 1 in Miami. The Heat were the fifth best defensive team their first year together and they were 4.2 points/100 possessions better when Bosh was on the floor in the regular season, and 9.4 points/100 possessions better with him on the floor in the playoffs in 2011.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/7964/chris-bosh-no-longer-just-a-one-way-player

I don't think Cleveland is particularly deep at all. They are deep at the four and five with Mozgov, Varaejoa, Thompson and Love, but you can only play two of those guys at once and really LeBron is probably the best option at four on the team. Their wing/backcourt depth is terrible. Irving is great but is proving to be very injury prone. Aside from him you have Shumpert and Smith, that's it for quality perimeter guys. That's not good depth. All the Cavs have to offer is the mini midlevel exception too so it's going to be tough to add guys any way besides a trade and Brendan Haywood and a late first round pick is not going to bring much back either.

I think you have an absurd definition of depth. How many teams have better depth than CLE does right now, let alone day 1 of the season?

PG Kyrie
SG Shump
SF LeBron
PF Love
C Mozgov

PG Dellevedova (need to improve here obviously, biggest weak spot)
SG Smith
SF James Jones (Another weak spot, but plenty of wins out there to get)
PF Thompson
C Varejao

But Thompson/Varejao/Smith as a 2nd line is pretty damn good. Plus they'e got bullets in the chamber to get more guys and veterans to come help compared to Marion/Miller/

TT is at worst a top 3 6th man in the league, and as a 4th big Varejao is a great asset to have. They are plenty deep. And if they can take GS to 6 games without Love/Kyrie/AV, they will be plenty deep to compete for a title after using/trading their 1st round pick and the Haywood contract.

Obviously most teams with this top end talent don't have anywhere near the talent on the 2nd line that the Cavs do.

LeBron/Kyrie/Love/Thompson/Mozgov/Shump/Smith/Varejao is a top 8 I'd put up against anyone.

That top end talent along with the 2nd line is crazy.

 

[Clark]

So you think Kevin Love right now is a star?

I think Love is good enough to be the second best player on the right championship team and without question good enough to be the third on any title team.

I don't think you'll see any arguments from NBA people that he's one of the top 25 players in the league.

 

[Wesley]

https://dawindycity.com/2015/06/24/chicago-bulls-draft-2015-fred-hoiberg-gives-draft-added-meaning/

 

[Cy$]

Hornets adding Batum and Lamb to the team. Barnes going to the Thunder is a decent depth move for them.

Hornets with Kemba, Batum, and Jefferson might sneak into the playoffs if they stay healthy.

 

[CyJack13]

Hornets adding Batum and Lamb to the team. Barnes going to the Thunder is a decent depth move for them.

Hornets with Kemba, Batum, and Jefferson might sneak into the playoffs if they stay healthy.

Barnes now going to Memphis not OKC, although ESPN has articles saying both things still up. I like the Batum trade for Charlotte, they desperately needed shooters and this was a buy low move on Batum. Seems like Portland is not expecting Aldridge to resign and really shaking up their roster this offseason.

 

[jbindm]

I think Love is good enough to be the second best player on the right championship team and without question good enough to be the third on any title team.

I don't think you'll see any arguments from NBA people that he's one of the top 25 players in the league.

Agreed 100%. He's not quite good enough to be the go-to guy on a playoff team, but a team can absolutely contend for a championship if he's the second best or third best player on the team. Question is, can he accept that? With Kevin Love I always get the feeling that he wants to have his cake and eat it by being the superstar on a contender. And while he's a very good, very productive player he comes up just short as a guy who can carry a good team.

 

[jbindm]

well yeah these are all opinions, I may end up being proven wrong.

I'd like to know what trades you think would get a team a title with Cousins. Sure, I could buy that Golden State or Cleveland could win a title with him if you just took their current roster (minus the center he's replacing) and added him to it.

But who could make a legitimate offer for him and still have a team capable of challenging for a title? I get why the Lakers and Celtics are after him, they don't have that many quality pieces to begin with so they've got nothing to lose.

Going through the current playoff teams:

Golden State: would you give up Klay, Bogut and a first round pick for him?

New Orleans: they're not trading Davis and they don't have anyone else Sacremento would want

Portland: Aldridge is a FA so the money difference would require a significant sweetener and even if it didn't is Portland really a better team with Cousins rather than Aldridge?

Clippers: Sacremento is going to want more than Deandre and a first rounder, and I don't know what else LA could give up besides Paul or Blake to even make them think about trading Cousins.

Houston: Dwight is better anyway, but Houston couldn't afford to trade Dwight's defense for Cousins' offense given the rest of their roster.

Dallas: clearly would make them much better, but they don't really have anyone Sacramento would want.

Memphis: already has the best center in the league

Atlanta: would trading Horford for Cousins have made Atlanta better given Atlanta's playing style?

Brooklyn: don't see a trade that would make sense given the contracts that most of Brooklyn's team has.

Toronto: Does Lowry, Amir Johnson, and a first round pick get the deal done? If so, does that make them better?

Washington: would probably have to part with either Wall or Beal, along with Gortat. Don't think that makes them better.

Chicago: would have to give up at least Butler and Noah along with either Mirotic or Gibson. Maybe the most intriguing what if as the lineup would basically be Rose, Mirotic/Gibson, Cousins, and two wings. That's basically betting on Rose's health.

Milwaukee: they could probably get a deal done by giving up the #1 pick and Jabari.

Cleveland: does a Love sign and trade work if they include Mosgov? That could be interesting.

Boston: They'd have to give up Smart and all of their valuable Nets picks. Does Isaiah Thomas and Cousins make boston an elite team? It certainly didn't make Sacramento an elite team.

As a bonus since you're a pacers fan, you trading Cousins for Paul George?

If the acrimony between Cousins and the Kings front office is as bad as it sounds, then whoever is interested won't have to give up nearly as much as any of the scenarios you laid out. The Kings don't have much leverage here. I wouldn't necessarily make a star for star trade, but if I could get him for the cost of a starter, a first rounder this year or a top three protected pick next year, and maybe an expiring contract then I'd take that deal in a heartbeat. That might be all it takes if push comes to shove.

 

[Clark]

Agreed 100%. He's not quite good enough to be the go-to guy on a playoff team, but a team can absolutely contend for a championship if he's the second best or third best player on the team. Question is, can he accept that? With Kevin Love I always get the feeling that he wants to have his cake and eat it by being the superstar on a contender. And while he's a very good, very productive player he comes up just short as a guy who can carry a good team.

I just think he needs the ball more often than he had it in Cleveland. He can play with another star but I don't think he's worth max money if all you're going to do is have him stand in the corner and shoot threes. You can get quality guys like Trevor Ariza to do that for far less money with better defense.

 

[Clark]

If the acrimony between Cousins and the Kings front office is as bad as it sounds, then whoever is interested won't have to give up nearly as much as any of the scenarios you laid out. The Kings don't have much leverage here. I wouldn't necessarily make a star for star trade, but if I could get him for the cost of a starter, a first rounder this year or a top three protected pick next year, and maybe an expiring contract then I'd take that deal in a heartbeat. That might be all it takes if push comes to shove.

Not with that many years left on his contract, the Kings actually have quite a bit of leverage. If this were a Carmelo situation where he was going to be a FA next year I could see him being traded for a similar pu pu platter.

What's Cousins going to do, not play for three years?

 

[CyJack13]

I just think he needs the ball more often than he had it in Cleveland. He can play with another star but I don't think he's worth max money if all you're going to do is have him stand in the corner and shoot threes. You can get quality guys like Trevor Ariza to do that for far less money with better defense.

I agree, and with Cleveland, having the ball in Love's hands means it's not in LeBron or Irving's hands. He's vastly overqualified for the role they are asking him to play. I think the Cavs would be better off if they flipped Love in a sign and trade for Ariza and Brewer from the Rockets. That would give the Cavs a lot more rotation flexible, let them play small a lot more with LeBron at the four and both Ariza and Brewer are solid defenders as well.

 

[jbindm]

Not with that many years left on his contract, the Kings actually have quite a bit of leverage. If this were a Carmelo situation where he was going to be a FA next year I could see him being traded for a similar pu pu platter.

What's Cousins going to do, not play for three years?

What are the Kings going to do? Stand pat and hope that Boogie and George Karl kiss and make up?

It's a toxic relationship between the player and coach at this point, so someone's gotta go. It should be George Karl, but I doubt it will be. I don't know if a deal is going to happen tonight, but I think that by the time the 15-16 season tips off DeMarcus Cousins is going to be long gone from Sacramento and the Kings won't get equal value for him.

 

[Clark]

What are the Kings going to do? Stand pat and hope that Boogie and George Karl kiss and make up?

It's a toxic relationship between the player and coach at this point, so someone's gotta go. It should be George Karl, but I doubt it will be. I don't know if a deal is going to happen tonight, but I think that by the time the 15-16 season tips off DeMarcus Cousins is going to be long gone from Sacramento and the Kings won't get equal value for him.

lol no, they'd fire Karl. Just look at all the reports about what the Lakers have offered and Sacramento has rejected. I think unless the Lakers get desperate or land a couple big FA's this year which frees them up to make a Godfather offer Cousins will be in Sacramento next year.

If you're a true Cousins believer, the #2 pick, Randle, and Clarkson (trade reportedly rejected according to Yahoo)aren't equal value for him but I'd make that trade in a heart beat.

 

[jbindm]

Wow David West opted out? That's a real surprising move, the Pacers are probably happy about that.

Good for both sides, although I'm sure Larry Bird would have rather used him as a trade asset. Best of luck to him. There's no way he commands anywhere close to 12 mil/year on the open market, but he wants to win now and with the Pacers wanting to get smaller and play faster he doesn't fit in Indy anymore.

 

[jbindm]

lol no, they'd fire Karl. Just look at all the reports about what the Lakers have offered and Sacramento has rejected. I think unless the Lakers get desperate or land a couple big FA's this year which frees them up to make a Godfather offer Cousins will be in Sacramento next year.

If you're a true Cousins believer, the #2 pick, Randle, and Clarkson (trade reportedly rejected according to Yahoo)aren't equal value for him but I'd make that trade in a heart beat.

You sure about that? In all of George Karl's feuds with players that went public, he outlasted the player each time. He's one hell of a politician.

 

[Clark]

You sure about that? In all of George Karl's feuds with players that went public, he outlasted the player each time. He's one hell of a politician.

There have been loads of player/coach feuds over the years, I can't think of any where the player had this much time left on his contract and the organization chose the coach.

 

[HFCS]

I agree, and with Cleveland, having the ball in Love's hands means it's not in LeBron or Irving's hands. He's vastly overqualified for the role they are asking him to play. I think the Cavs would be better off if they flipped Love in a sign and trade for Ariza and Brewer from the Rockets. That would give the Cavs a lot more rotation flexible, let them play small a lot more with LeBron at the four and both Ariza and Brewer are solid defenders as well.

I defer to you in the Cavs roster needs...but it seems to me a pressing need is better 3 point shooting in a more consistent and mentally stable mode than JR Smith. Love had that but like you said overqualified if that's the role. I don't think you have to break the bank to get that.

I don't know how it compares to with Love in the lineup, but some of the non-LeBron 3 point shooting stats in playoff games were pretty jaw dropping. Any team with LBJ should be able to have 1 or 2 guys light it up from distance easily.

 

[CyJack13]

I defer to you in the Cavs roster needs...but it seems to me a pressing need is better 3 point shooting in a more consistent and mentally stable mode than JR Smith. Love had that but like you said overqualified if that's the role. I don't think you have to break the bank to get that.

I don't know how it compares to with Love in the lineup, but some of the non-LeBron 3 point shooting stats in playoff games were pretty jaw dropping. Any team with LBJ should be able to have 1 or 2 guys light it up from distance easily.

Agreed. I also think in today's NBA, as the last four title teams have shown, you need to be able to play small ball lineups for extended periods of time, and that means playing LeBron at the four. If you're playing LeBron at the four, that means you can only play one of Love, Thompson, Mozgov, Varaejao. I don't think the Cavs have enough perimeter depth to do that right now. Ariza would be a real good fit, he's a solid 3 point shooter and good defensively, Brewer is a bad three point shooter, and getting worse at it somehow, but he can guard and finds ways to score especially in transition.

Adding those two guys would give you a guard/wing rotation of Irving, Shumpert, Smith, Brewer and Ariza. A Shumpert/Brewer/Ariza/LeBron/Thompson line up would be lights out defensively and get away with a ton of switching. Yeah, you're not going to be able to space the floor as well when LeBron is at the 3, but you should be able to score enough with LeBron and Irving in any lineup during the regular season and early playoff rounds and you'll have to convince Ariza or LeBron to play more minutes at the four during the regular season, but I think that move would give them a lot more flexibility than how their roster is currently made up.

 

[Cy$]

Broussard saying that Ranadive is close to firing Karl. We'll see what happens.

 

[CyJack13]

Broussard saying that Ranadive is close to firing Karl. We'll see what happens.

Cavs, Warriors, Bucks, Nuggets, Kings...quite a prestigious list of franchises he's been fired by.