Cleveland Indians changing name

[Mr Janny]

It was all over once cancel culture got to New Coke.

Upton Sinclair was just a virtue signaling SJW. People just needed to "allow themselves a much wider margin of acceptable opinion" when it camr to the meat packing industry.

 

[Mr Janny]

Companies don't just react to market forces and changing consumer preferences, though.

Some are so large and dominant that they have market power -- so they can indulge their whims.

Companies can also be self-interested or beholden to the interests of governmental overlords.

I think you are bright enough to recognize that everything every company ever does is not consumer-driven.

Of course. Consumer opinion is not the only market force. But that doesn't make it any less legitimate. The Cleveland franchise spent years and years resisting this. And were 100% allowed to do that. And they could have continued to resist if they wanted. This was their call to change.

 

[CloniesForLife]

You do not know a lot of history (or even present, if you want to glance over at China and others) if you do not think that a consortium of big businesses and an activist government that supports and enables them cannot together have a pretty chilling effect on a freedom of speech. What worth is it if you can never use it?

Not saying that ditching "Redskins" or "Indians" is equivalent to that -- far from it. But the worst-case downsides of using economic pressure to bend opinions, the media, and entertainment are obviously.

How about we say a media outlet spreads a news story worldwide unflattering to a totalitarian regime. The regime is mad about this, and instructs its subsidiaries (directly or indirectly related) to pull ad dollars from the outlet, and they threaten to kick out any multinationals providing any sort of support for that outlet from their market. The outlet caves rather than go out of business without ad money. "It's just business" is an insufficient description of that.

If you want a softer version of it, companies can use this power to whitewash and airbrush their own history, too. Disney has been working for decades to make Song of the South unavailable. Is that on net a good thing to let them scrub their history like that? Certainly removing past associations with racism and antisemitism are valuable to the House of Mouse and its stockholders today, but are we all served by being unaware of that history?

CC that gets rid of racial slurs is fine by me. CC that protects past or present evil... is not.

I mean you are making a drastic jump from this situation to the situation you describe above. I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you that those are bad situations. That is why a free press is crucial to a free society. Nice subtle dig at my intelligence though.

As far as Disney: if they want to make it unavailable on their streaming services or by not producing any new physical copies so what? They have evolved as a company and don't want to continue to prop up something that they have created that they no longer agree with.

 

[Dandy]

Chiefs will become the Monarchs before Patrick is done.

No. I doubt the Hunt family will change the name of the franchise their own family started. That, and there is nothing wrong about the "Chiefs."

Mahomes and the city are going to try to get the NBA to start a franchise there and they'll be the Monarchs.

 

[Dandy]

Keep the Chiefs name. Change the arrowhead to a police or fire emblem/badge and change the branding from Indians to police or fire chiefs. Easy change.

I wouldn’t change ether name of the stadium though.

Change the arrowhead? What?

Should the Lakers change their emblem to stop offending people who have drowned? Should the New York Jets change their name because of 9/11?

How extreme are we going to go here?????

 

[Sigmapolis]

Of course. Consumer opinion is not the only market force. But that doesn't make it any less legitimate. The Cleveland franchise spent years and years resisting this. And were 100% allowed to do that. And they could have continued to resist if they wanted. This was their call to change.

Upton Sinclair writes The Jungle to expose the horrifying working conditions and unsanitary practices of the Chicago meatpacking industry to the world. It is a seminal piece of investigative journalism.

What if this happened instead?

The meatpacking industry gets wind of his work. They call up his newspaper(s) and publisher(s) and tell them that, if they publish this, they are going to pull all advertising and no longer supply them with the inputs they need to function. Not only that, the meatpacking industry calls on its friends in all other industries to do the same (all of them scared of getting the same treatment) and friends in politics to continue the campaign of economic harassment.

In addition to that, these interest float a few rumors of antisemitism on Sinclair's part, if only "dog whistles," which are easy to find whenever an avowed socialist is writing critically of capitalism and "monied interests."

Those papers and publishers face extinction. They pull the story and fire Sinclair as an anti-Semite. Technically everybody was acting in their best interests. "It's just business," as you have told me.

Is that an okay outcome to you?

 

[Sigmapolis]

I mean you are making a drastic jump from this situation to the situation you describe above. I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you that those are bad situations. That is why a free press is crucial to a free society. Nice subtle dig at my intelligence though.

I meant no dig at your intelligence there. I apologize the sentence construction came off like that.

I would just tell you if I thought you were "not smart."

As far as Disney: if they want to make it unavailable on their streaming services or by not producing any new physical copies so what? They have evolved as a company and don't want to continue to prop up something that they have created that they no longer agree with.

That is the generous, pro-Disney way to read it. But I find, say, Disney being able to sweep its past racism under the rug as more insidious and self-serving than genuinely addressing the problem.

 

[shagcarpetjesus]

They ALL need to go with "(insert city) baseball team". Or "(insert city) football team". etc.

That is the ONLY way to prevent offense. But even then...

I think MLS already has a monopoly on uncreative franchise names. If you want to use MLS naming rules, just pick from the following list:

Cleveland BC
BC Cleveland
Cleveland United
Cleveland City BC

or if you want to get wild and crazy:

Inter Cleveland
Real Cleveland

 

[Dandy]

I wonder if the Cleveland Baseball Team will be swift with the new mascot decision and announcement. They've obviously been thinking about this for a while, as they changed their logo a few years back.

I hope they handle it way better than Dan Snyder and the Washington Football Team, who refused to change until his pockets were going to get smaller. They had no plan and they're likely rolling with Football Team for next year too.

 

[Mr Janny]

Upton Sinclair writes The Jungle to expose the horrifying working conditions and unsanitary practices of the Chicago meatpacking industry to the world. It is a seminal piece of investigative journalism.

What if this happened instead?

The meatpacking industry gets wind of his work. They call up his newspaper(s) and publisher(s) and tell them that, if they publish this, they are going to pull all advertising and no longer supply them with the inputs they need to function. Not only that, the meatpacking industry calls on its friends in all other industries to do the same (all of them scared of getting the same treatment) and friends in politics to continue the campaign of economic harassment.

Not only that, but these interest float a few rumors of antisemitism on Sinclair's part, if only "dog whistles," which are easy to find whenever an avowed socialist is writing critically of capitalism and "monied interests."

Those papers and publishers face extinction. They pull the story and fire Sinclair as an anti-Semite. Technically everybody was acting in their best interests. "It's just business," as you have told me.

Is that an okay outcome to you?

All of that has happened and continues to happen every single day in the world of business. See the war between butter and margarine in the late 19th century for a great example.

Being okay with it doesn't matter.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I wonder if the Cleveland Baseball Team will be swift with the new mascot decision and announcement. They've obviously been thinking about this for a while, as they changed their logo a few years back.

I hope they handle it way better than Dan Snyder and the Washington Football Team, who refused to change until his pockets were going to get smaller. They had no plan and they're likely rolling with Football Team for next year too.

Snyder might be the most incompetent owner in major league sports generally.

 

[Sigmapolis]

All of that has happened and continues to happen every single day in the world of business. See the war between butter and margarine in the late 19th century for a great example.

Being okay with it doesn't matter.

I was wrong about you being an ancap. Turns out you're more of a nihilist.

I do appreciate the cynicism, though, that we can agree upon.

 

[CloniesForLife]

I meant no dig at your intelligence there. I apologize the sentence construction came off like that.

I would just tell you if I thought you were "not smart."



That is the generous, pro-Disney way to read it. But I find, say, Disney being able to sweep its past racism under the rug as more insidious and self-serving than genuinely addressing the problem.

Sorry that I read that wrong.

I agree that it is very self serving for Disney but what would you have them do?

 

[BCClone]

I think MLS already has a monopoly on uncreative franchise names. If you want to use MLS naming rules, just pick from the following list:

Cleveland BC
BC Cleveland
Cleveland United
Cleveland City BC

or if you want to get wild and crazy:

Inter Cleveland
Real Cleveland

They truly love me in the soccer world. Which is confusing because I pick bowling over watching a soccer game even.

 

[Mr Janny]

I meant no dig at your intelligence there. I apologize the sentence construction came off like that.

I would just tell you if I thought you were "not smart."



That is the generous, pro-Disney way to read it. But I find, say, Disney being able to sweep its past racism under the rug as more insidious and self-serving than genuinely addressing the problem.

Why should they have to continue to make it available, though? Does Hugo Boss need to keep offering Nazi uniforms in their catalog?

I'm by no means a corporatist, but if modern disney doesn't want to advocate parts of their past, that's their call. We, as a consumer, don't have to forget it, and are free to alter our consumption based on it if we choose, but the company doesn't have to advocate it if they don't want to.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I agree that it is very self serving for Disney but what would you have them do?

"We were wrong. Here is how and why we were wrong. For those of you who feel comfortable being exposed to the sins of the past, you can access it (without it contributing to our profitability)."

As opposed to, "This never happened. Nothing to see here."

Why should they have to continue to make it available, though? Does Hugo Boss need to keep offering Nazi uniforms in their catalog?

I'm by no means a corporatist, but if modern disney doesn't want to advocate parts of their past, that's their call. We, as a consumer, don't have to forget it, and are free to alter our consumption based on it if we choose, but the company doesn't have to advocate it if they don't want to.

It is much easier to forget it (and Disney and Hugo Boss definitely want it that way) when those artifacts of past sins have vanished from view forever, rather than being available in the proper museum-like context.

Monuments are not only to our glories -- but also to our sins.

Japanese American Memorial to Patriotism During World War II

 

[Mr Janny]

I was wrong about you being an ancap. Turns out you're more of a nihilist.

I do appreciate the cynicism, though, that we can agree upon.

Fair enough. I can live with that. Cheers

 

[Dandy]

I was wrong about you being an ancap. Turns out you're more of a nihilist.

I do appreciate the cynicism, though, that we can agree upon.

 

[NWICY]

That was my thought. If they didn't have the red face Indian mascot I don't think this would be happening. But there is no way to sugarcoat that one.

Didn't they get rid of Chief Wahoo a few yrs ago?

 

[BryceC]

"We were wrong. Here is how and why we were wrong. For those of you who feel comfortable being exposed to the sins of the past, you can access it (without it contributing to our profitability)."

As opposed to, "This never happened. Nothing to see here."

I disagree, there is no problem with them removing it from their services. They have apologized for it several times and think it doesn't represent their current values. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I have many photos of myself and my family in my home hanging on the walls. The argument you're making is that I should include pictures of myself drunk as hell at a bachelor party or I'm whitewashing my past. That's not true, it's just that behavior is not reflective of who I am currently, and that's the same thing Disney is doing here.