Every time this thread pops up I am reminded of Jack Elam.
Elam Ending
- Thread starter BryceC
- Start date
Not that this is a huge deal but I do think you would see reduced playing time for scrubs with this. If your up 15 with 3 minutes left, the end of your bench is getting PT right now. You could argue the value of a true freshman playing 3 minutes in a blowout. But at the end of the day I'd rather see someone like Naz Long play 3 minutes his freshman year. I think you'd have to leave your starters or immediate bench players in to finish off those types of games. Otherwise you risk the other team coming back and having to put starters back in who've already mentally checked out.
I'm not necessarily arguing against it, just another thought I had.
I'm not necessarily arguing against it, just another thought I had.
And there will inevitably be many of the highlighted situations. Unless the refs swallow their whistles and let the last possession (and the possessions after that if there is no score) turn into a hackfest.
Regarding the article quoted in the above post, how many opportunities for buzzer beaters were there in those 2900 games? For me, that is the issue. For the traditional timed ending, if a ref calls a foul with a few seconds left in a tie game, the team who the foul is called on at least gets a chance to try and get a buzzer beater off, no matter what the shooter of the FTs does. In the Elam ending, on the last possession, a foul call will result in the opportunity for walk-off free throws. Are the refs going to feel psychological pressure to not call fouls because they don't want to "decide the game", or will they make the tough, but correct, foul call and basically end the game?
Personally, I think if the Elam ending is implemented, players and fans alike will come to dislike the inevitable walk-off FTs / hackfest that the end of close games turns into, and the traditional timed ending will be reinstated.
Interesting thought..
I still think the losing team could play 5-4 and have a fast guard sit at the top of the key. If they shoot a 3, just have that guy take off running immediately after its shot. He should make it back by the time the ball is either rebounded or passed from out of bounds.
This is a really interesting idea, but probably too extreme. Some thoughts.
1. Would this really end the foul fest? Instead of at the end of the game, I think you'd see the foul fest earlier in the game to close the gap before the 4 minute mark.
2. Cherry picking wouldn't happen. If a team in the lead wants to try to play with 4 defenders, the offensive team will just play 4 on 4 and leave someonoe back. 4 on 4 is still an advantage for the offense as it increases spacing.
3. This could make for some really exciting finishes. Teams go on 10-2 or more runs all the time. Now you could see that at the end of a game and not have a team run out of time.
4. Its not just buzzer beaters that are exciting. Any lead changing shot in the final 5 seconds is super exciting to me. I imagine there are far more than than 28 of these that have occurred and anyone using that number is missing out.
1. Would this really end the foul fest? Instead of at the end of the game, I think you'd see the foul fest earlier in the game to close the gap before the 4 minute mark.
2. Cherry picking wouldn't happen. If a team in the lead wants to try to play with 4 defenders, the offensive team will just play 4 on 4 and leave someonoe back. 4 on 4 is still an advantage for the offense as it increases spacing.
3. This could make for some really exciting finishes. Teams go on 10-2 or more runs all the time. Now you could see that at the end of a game and not have a team run out of time.
4. Its not just buzzer beaters that are exciting. Any lead changing shot in the final 5 seconds is super exciting to me. I imagine there are far more than than 28 of these that have occurred and anyone using that number is missing out.
Honestly, they should try this is some preseason tournaments like Maui, PR or whatever.
Refs swallow their whistles at the end of games already.
I guess the goal is something like baseball -- it is "pure" in the sense that you have to get your last out the same way you have to get your first.
You need more runs after 27 outs. Nothing ever changes that.
The clock never "skews" the game.
Then again, managerial strategies (e.g., pinch hitting and running for players, defensive substitutions, and of course with pitchers) still skew it. You are never going to treat a close 8th or 9th inning the way you would the first few of them.
I am not quite sure this idea really removes a lot of the skew at the end of basketball games, for reasons others are correctly pointing out.
You need more runs after 27 outs. Nothing ever changes that.
The clock never "skews" the game.
Then again, managerial strategies (e.g., pinch hitting and running for players, defensive substitutions, and of course with pitchers) still skew it. You are never going to treat a close 8th or 9th inning the way you would the first few of them.
I am not quite sure this idea really removes a lot of the skew at the end of basketball games, for reasons others are correctly pointing out.
If your only reason for doing this is the foul fest at the end of games, think again. Coaches would just innovate another way to make the end of games ugly.
Cyclonepride
Thought Police
It wouldn't get rid of the fouling completely, but it should reduce it. With the current system, you foul in the last minute because you have nothing to lose. Let's say your down 8 with a minute to go. You need to make up all 8 of those points in a minute or you lose. There really isn't time to make up those points by making shots and playing defense, so you foul. You're probably just as likely (or maybe more likely) to increase the spread doing this, but you do it because it doesn't matter if you lose by 4 or 12. However, if you are down 8 with 5 to go with the Elam Ending, you are probably better off playing regular offense and defense and trying to decrease the lead because you don't have to make up all 8 points.
I generally agree with you. You wouldn't just foul anybody. But you would start fouling poor free throw shooters earlier.
I gotta say, watching TBT I've really enjoyed the Elam ending. Doesn't take away from the drama at the end of the game; in fact it adds to it.
I've seen some interesting strategy. If a team is ahead at the 4 minute mark and the other team has the ball, the team that is ahead will foul at 3:59 to trigger the Elam Ending before the other team has a chance to make a basket.
I think it would just change when you put them in. If you’re up, you’re still going to want fresh legs for your starters in the end, so your scrubs or backups would just go in during the third quarter instead of the fourth quarter and then your stars come back in the fourth quarter instead of playing the third. It also would make how to sub interesting. If you’re up 10 after the third quarter, do you put your starters back in to try to drive up the score as much as possible for the untimed period or do you rest their legs to put them in to close the deal in the untimed period?
There are lots of pros and cons but the main pro that outweighs everything isn’t me not having to watch WVU anymore than is absolutely necessary (which is when we play them).
CycloneErik
Well-Known Member
Clearing the bench with a 15 point lead and 3 left? You might want to double-check that.
