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This is why Prohm must go........

BryceC said:
Completely disagree. They were recruited very, very late in the cycle. You risk tying up that scholarship on a 4 year guy who will never play versus a guy who is 1 and out. The issue is much more Lard, Long, Lewis, etc. not really panning out to be good rotation players.
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I'll split the middle here and agree with both of you on your respective points. Those one year players that were mentioned were only at ISU for one forgettable season and the other guys mentioned that came in as freshmen just haven't contributed the way we hoped they would or are not even with the program altogether. Both go a long ways towards contributing to the roster we have now, which from top to bottom clearly isn't up to par to compete in the Big 12.
 
rochclone said:
I think I have made it fairly clear that I don’t care who the coach is as long as we win consistently. Ticket holder since 1995 (25 years) so I’ve seen highs and lows and will be a fan long after mynameisanasshole graduates from high school.
Fred was the best coach in our history with 115 wins in 5 years. Prohm is probably the 4th best coach since Johnny retired. I have a major issue with Prohm being considered a better coach to CFH but it’s not a supportable argument and that is all I heard for years on this forum from Cat and the crew.
I think Steve’s second year was his best coaching job and amazing. Year 4 was a success IMO despite the February swoon. But year 3 & 5 were absolute disasters and Year 5 is direct product of poor recruiting decisions by Prohm. Instead of taking Beverly or Brase he could have recruited some freshmen that would hopefully now be contributing juniors. He hasn’t been unlucky but rather dealing with the same issues that most Power 5 coaches deal with.
Losing is one thing, but being non-competitive the numbers of times we have been in the last three years has to be alarming even to the greatest Prohm loyalist.
I don’t dislike Prohm as a person but I don’t think this is going to work out. It would be easier if it did instead of Iowa State doing a full reboot. But IMO the Florida AM and Texas Tech games are the types of games were you lose lots of everyday fans.
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Wow speaking of putting words in mouths.

can you link a post stating anyone said Steve is a better coach?

the point always has been for the Fred ball washers that he left, wanted to leave, tried for several years to leave, and that should be a huge part of the narrative instead of defending his honor. In fact the delay of his just leaving, did have impacts on the program going forward.

and of course the abject failure he was in the nba, being rated the worst coach in the league by gm’s for a his last two seasons in Chicago.

I consider him far more Tim floyd mercenary than loyal son forever true.

if that bothers you, that you need to pretend he didn’t get just as much from Iowa State as he gave as a coach, that’s a different story
 
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Clonefan32 said:
Exactly. And to me I think there comes a point where games like that leave such a bad taste in my mouth that it will take something substantial next year to sway my opinion on Prohm.
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I've been a Prohm supporter and still am but I now have no desire to defend him like I have in the past. He does really need to start showing his abilities next year. To me, I find it extremely unsettling that almost none of the players have gotten better year over year. Can you name more than Tyrese that has actually shown vast improvement under his coaching? It's hard for me to find...any.
 
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MartyFine said:
One of two things needs to happen after this season. ISU either makes a coaching change, or ISU gives Prohm a vote of confidence and extends his contract.
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Well, it is nice and refreshing to know that I am not the only one to engage in hyperbole from time to time...

Anyway, I don't think even JP would be that tone deaf to extend Prohm's contract after this season, unless we go on a miracle run, win the Big 12 tournament and spring the traditional 13 vs. 4 first round upset, which I don't think is going to happen.
 
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dahliaclone said:
I've been a Prohm supporter and still am but I now have no desire to defend him like I have in the past. He does really need to start showing his abilities next year. To me, I find it extremely unsettling that almost none of the players have gotten better year over year. Can you name more than Tyrese that has actually shown vast improvement under his coaching? It's hard for me to find...any.
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I think Deonte Burton showed a lot of improvement from Year 1 to Year 2. I also think that both Matt Thomas and Monte had really good seasons under Prohm.

Of course, the natural expectation for 3 or 4 year players is that they are always going to get better every succeeding season as they finish out their college careers, so I don't think it's the biggest feather in the cap for guys to improve necessarily, but I can't say that I would have ever expected Matt Thomas to find a home, for however long it lasts for, in the NBA.
 
dahliaclone said:
I've been a Prohm supporter and still am but I now have no desire to defend him like I have in the past. He does really need to start showing his abilities next year. To me, I find it extremely unsettling that almost none of the players have gotten better year over year. Can you name more than Tyrese that has actually shown vast improvement under his coaching? It's hard for me to find...any.
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Could argue Deonte Burton and Solomon Young. Shayok was a completely different player under Prohm than he was under Tony Bennett, but that's likely more due to the system.
 
dahliaclone said:
I've been a Prohm supporter and still am but I now have no desire to defend him like I have in the past. He does really need to start showing his abilities next year. To me, I find it extremely unsettling that almost none of the players have gotten better year over year. Can you name more than Tyrese that has actually shown vast improvement under his coaching? It's hard for me to find...any.
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I think it's difficult with the way Prohm came in to really determine this. Guys like Georges, Matt, Burton and Monte-- did they improve, or was it just the natural progression of a good player? So if the question is whether guys he recruited have come in and gotten markedly better, I'm not sure there is anyone other than Tyrese. At the same time, however, it's not like there was an abundance of playing time to go around those first few years, so the sample size is relatively low. The true test would be how guys like Jackson, Grill, Foster, Blackwell, etc. are able to develop now that Fred's left-overs have all moved on. But I'm not sure he will be here long enough to really test that theory.
 
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ISUChippewa said:
I think Deonte Burton showed a lot of improvement from Year 1 to Year 2. I also think that both Matt Thomas and Monte had really good seasons under Prohm.

Of course, the natural expectation for 3 or 4 year players is that they are always going to get better every succeeding season as they finish out their college careers, so I don't think it's the biggest feather in the cap for guys to improve necessarily, but I can't say that I would have ever expected Matt Thomas to find a home, for however long it lasts for, in the NBA.
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Sigh. Abdel Nader. Naz

remember when Matt Thomas was considered a bust after his sophomore year?
 
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I think too much is put on coaches developing guys. You can give guys tools or tell them what they need to get better but if they don't put in the work, they won't get better. Guys like Morris, Niang Thomas etc put in the work. Guys like Lewis haven't. Young has put in work, Haliburton. Some though just have limited skills/talent and can't get much better, i.e. Nixon, Beverly etc.
 
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Halincandenza said:
I think too much is put on coaches developing guys. You can give guys tools or tell them what they need to get better but if they don't put in the work, they won't get better. Guys like Morris, Niang Thomas etc put in the work. Guys like Lewis haven't. Young has put in work, Haliburton. Some though just have limited skills/talent and can't get much better, i.e. Nixon, Beverly etc.
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To me, this speaks to the culture within our program. They raved about the culture Beard has created in Lubbock during the game Saturday, the guys you mentioned who put in the work, came up in a much stronger program culture than the current squad. Tech is built different that our teams from the early part of the 10's but you could see the same fire those teams used to play with. They played hard the entire game, were beating us to loose balls, they were giving the ball up to get teammates a better shot and every time one of them had the ball, they were looking to make something happen. It looked like they were playing for each other. These are all areas we struggle. Those things all start with leadership, that needs to come from the coaching staff and veteran players.
 
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MartyFine said:
One of two things needs to happen after this season. ISU either makes a coaching change, or ISU gives Prohm a vote of confidence and extends his contract.
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Neither is going to happen. He's already signed through 24-25, five more seasons. He wouldn't be getting another extension even if he had a good season. His buyout is half what's left on those five years too so he's going to be here next season like it or not.
 
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KKramer said:
Could argue Deonte Burton and Solomon Young. Shayok was a completely different player under Prohm than he was under Tony Bennett, but that's likely more due to the system.
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If you simply apply a team scoring avg. adjustment Shayok scores about 11 ppg. You can say he was a better fit in ISU's system, but when Shayok decided to go to ISU, nobody would've predicted he'd score 19 ppg and be an All-American. He was night and day better from his UVa days, and it isn't simply because ISU played faster.

Thomas made a huge jump from So. to Jr. He become a really good two-way player. Nader was logging DNPs prior to Prohm, then went on to the NBA. Over 2 seasons at Marquette Burton averaged 6.5 ppg.

How much you want to attribute to Prohm or the players themselves improving with experience and time is up to you. But all of these players made step-change improvements under Prohm vs. their pre-Prohm careers.

There were certainly players that stagnated and even some that regressed, too. This season has been a massive failure, but I don't think we need to revise history and say that guys haven't gotten better under Prohm. I do think mostly what you see with the guys that made big jumps is they are score-first guys with guard skills and length that need the ball in their hands, particularly Shayok, Nader, and Burton. I think this is Prohm's sweetspot, and he really didn't have that this year. As great as Tyrese is, he needs a roster of shooters and pick and roll finishers around him to be at his best. I think Wigginton or THT could've fit that bill well.

Ultimately it's up to the coach to either ensure the roster fits his style or adjust his style. I'm hoping Bolton can make a big jump with both finishing more consistently, improving his reads and passing. Otherwise I think expecting a guy like Johnson or Blackwell to step in and fill that role seems to be asking too much.
 
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Cat Stevens said:
Wow speaking of putting words in mouths.

can you link a post stating anyone said Steve is a better coach?

the point always has been for the Fred ball washers that he left, wanted to leave, tried for several years to leave, and that should be a huge part of the narrative instead of defending his honor. In fact the delay of his just leaving, did have impacts on the program going forward.

and of course the abject failure he was in the nba, being rated the worst coach in the league by gm’s for a his last two seasons in Chicago.

I consider him far more Tim floyd mercenary than loyal son forever true.

if that bothers you, that you need to pretend he didn’t get just as much from Iowa State as he gave as a coach, that’s a different story
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I agree with this commentary. Fred was in it for Fred - #1. I am sure he cares about ISU, but more about his career. He did great, but did leave us in a less than ideal position. He did leave us with some great players but a pretty dry pipeline.
 
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FerShizzle said:
Does Prohm do a weekly call in show? Or is that a football only thing?
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It's a split show with both MBB and WBB. I think though they may have dropped the call in part and take tweets? At least that is what JW was talking about when I listened last wk. Tried to find it tonight but couldn't locate it.
 
ManBearClone said:
He kept trying to pull away to take a seat. Take it as you may.
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Pretty standard for that context.

That said, at times it sure does seem as though there is a disconnect between the staff and players as measured by the execution on the court.
 
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