RIP: Chief Illiniwek
- Thread starter C.John
- Start date
Red Lake High School (where the student shooting took place two years ago) is all Native American student-wise. Their mascot is: "Ogichidaag" (Warriors, in the Ojibwe(Chippewa) language)
Orr High School, which many of the Nett Lake/Bois Fort band of Ojibwe attend, is: Braves.
Those are the main Native American high schools in my area. I believe neither of these schools has an official mascot.
South Tama = Trojans
They have had that mascot since I was in HS and that is a long time.
Interesting.
So by your experience being around the culture - far more than I, is it fair to say that many Native Americans aren't necessarily by the use of the "Braves", "Indians", etc. But rather by a physical mascot or depiction?
I guess that's often a hard thing to differentiate or separate. I remember a number years back the fuss over the Cleveland Indians logo. And I think there's been discussion about the Atlanta Braves using a tomahawk in their logo.
Thanks for the info.
So by your experience being around the culture - far more than I, is it fair to say that many Native Americans aren't necessarily by the use of the "Braves", "Indians", etc. But rather by a physical mascot or depiction?
I guess that's often a hard thing to differentiate or separate. I remember a number years back the fuss over the Cleveland Indians logo. And I think there's been discussion about the Atlanta Braves using a tomahawk in their logo.
Thanks for the info.
To paraphrase 'This Is Spinal Tap', there's a thin line between respectful and ridicule.
Native American mascots, especially those that have Eagle feathers in the costume, are considered disrespectful by most Native Americans i know to the spiritual history of the tribes of the Upper Midwest. Somewhat akin to having a drunken Jesuit as a mascot. I would assume that school nicknames are less of an issue.
Here's too far, in my opinion: In Minnesota, it is illegal to possess a bald eagle feather, even one found on the ground, unless you are a Native American or have special permission from the DNR.
btw, i think that, on balance, this has been one of the most rational, civilized discussions of the issue i've seen.
Wow, this thread has blown up in my absence. I'm glad to see we're capable of having a discussion without worrying about having the thread deleted. There have been some good points made both ways. I suppose I do fully realize that some of these teams that are being protested have millions of dollars hanging on this decision. It's hard to say what the aftermath of a change by a major college program or pro team would be.
The Chief Illiniwek issue along with the name Redskins are the two that really stick out to me, so those are the easiest for me to discuss. Personally, having seen the Washington Bullets become the Washington Wizards in the wake of D.C. being named the murder capital of the world I can't figure out why the Redskins can't do the same. But again, it's a money issue that's way over my head.
I'm not as bothered by the the Illinois nickname as much as I am the Chief himself. The way it was carried out was pretty bad. However, like I said earlier I'm sure it was not intended to bother anyone, but apparently it did.
Ironically I went to a high school (Spirit Lake) with the nickname Indians. With so much Native American history in the area I never thought twice about it. I guess my perspective has changed a bit too.
The Chief Illiniwek issue along with the name Redskins are the two that really stick out to me, so those are the easiest for me to discuss. Personally, having seen the Washington Bullets become the Washington Wizards in the wake of D.C. being named the murder capital of the world I can't figure out why the Redskins can't do the same. But again, it's a money issue that's way over my head.
I'm not as bothered by the the Illinois nickname as much as I am the Chief himself. The way it was carried out was pretty bad. However, like I said earlier I'm sure it was not intended to bother anyone, but apparently it did.
Ironically I went to a high school (Spirit Lake) with the nickname Indians. With so much Native American history in the area I never thought twice about it. I guess my perspective has changed a bit too.
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This thread has gone on far longer than I had expected when I started it. I had expected a few negative comments towards the NCAA for pressuring Universities to abolish their various Native American mascots and that was it. I figured it would fade from memory. The reason it didn't can be traced to the handful of members who have discussed/debated this topic in a concise and respectful way.
As for your comment concerning thread deletion, most threads that end up deleted are deleted as a result of the participants in the thread having become disrespectful to each other. As shown in this thread, CF members are quite capable of having a respectful debate which then keeps the thread safe from any of us 'trigger happy' mods.
thank god
there is nothing sadder than a bunch of white people whining and crying that they can't used indians as mascots anymore. Everyone thinks it is done with dignity and such but have you seen the cleveland indians logo!!! If that is dignity I am glad I am not native american. Can you imagine the uproar if we had a team called the negros or something with a logo featuring a cartoon black man with a fro and big exagerated lips. It is time to let the stereotypes go. Tradition is one thing but sometimes it gets in the may of the right thing to do.
there is nothing sadder than a bunch of white people whining and crying that they can't used indians as mascots anymore. Everyone thinks it is done with dignity and such but have you seen the cleveland indians logo!!! If that is dignity I am glad I am not native american. Can you imagine the uproar if we had a team called the negros or something with a logo featuring a cartoon black man with a fro and big exagerated lips. It is time to let the stereotypes go. Tradition is one thing but sometimes it gets in the may of the right thing to do.
I still believe that mascots for an institution is a source of pride and respect. I understand the stereotype issues with the fighting and war side of the native americans. How about mascots that are of white people in a militiary uniform or with weapons?
This issue obviously needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. There seem to be many tribes (Seminoles, Chippewas ) who don’t mind having their names used so no problem. But, in my understanding the fake Illini (school) has been in hot water with the real Illini (tribe) for some time. If they feel like they are being disrespected for any reason they have a right to complain. Who are we to tell them what should offend them?
Why do we have label people who complain about something as whiners with sand in their vagina? If any of you felt that you where being disrespected wouldn’t you stand up and say, “Hell no, that’s not right, that doesn’t represent me! Don’t make me into a joke!â€
It seems like the real Illini are struggling against two stereotypes, the first which is presented by the U of Illinois, and the second, as thin skin whiners who can’t take a joke, take themselves too seriously etc. Lets please be respectful and listen to what they have to say.
Why do we have label people who complain about something as whiners with sand in their vagina? If any of you felt that you where being disrespected wouldn’t you stand up and say, “Hell no, that’s not right, that doesn’t represent me! Don’t make me into a joke!â€
It seems like the real Illini are struggling against two stereotypes, the first which is presented by the U of Illinois, and the second, as thin skin whiners who can’t take a joke, take themselves too seriously etc. Lets please be respectful and listen to what they have to say.
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Actually, from what I've heard, there is no Illini tribe anymore, so Illinois gets to hear it from the Native American population in general. It's easier when you can pay one tribe off (such as FSU and CMU), but when you have to pay off every tribe in the US, it can get quite pricy...
Cyclonepride
Thought Police
Re: thank god
I would have to agree with you on the Cleveland Indians logo. That is the first one that comes to mind. Overall though, I believe that the pendulum is swinging too far the other way in our society. There is no way for us to make up for past mistakes. Seeking to end racism is a noble ideal, but at times it has become a witch hunt. Any idea or statement that could be construed the wrong way is attacked without mercy, and sometimes without common sense. I guess the wonderful thing about our country is that everyone from the extreme right and left get to have their say, it balances, and we find ourselves somewhere in the middle. Sometimes the middle is not very satisfying.
So... what happens when the mascots become more "traditional" than the tribes themselves? The PC police often "forget" that the misnamed "native Americans" weren't "native," at all, but rather pushed the original occupants (who were themselves encroachers on the land) off their "native lands" and mostly within a relatively short period of time before Europeans arrived.
In the process, our racist/tribalist warriors tortured, killed, humiliated and otherwise "disrespected" their precedents. And now demand "respect" for their "traditions" from the rest of us??? I would think being tax exempt, practicing massive welfare fraud and protecting criminals on reservations would be good enough for them. I actually enjoy the irony.
I apologize if I have burst anyone's bubble about the "noble" Native American. And think that anyone should have a right to use anything they want as a mascot, and be free from the fear of judicial blackmail. It "was" a free country, wasn't it?
In the process, our racist/tribalist warriors tortured, killed, humiliated and otherwise "disrespected" their precedents. And now demand "respect" for their "traditions" from the rest of us??? I would think being tax exempt, practicing massive welfare fraud and protecting criminals on reservations would be good enough for them. I actually enjoy the irony.
I apologize if I have burst anyone's bubble about the "noble" Native American. And think that anyone should have a right to use anything they want as a mascot, and be free from the fear of judicial blackmail. It "was" a free country, wasn't it?
