***Official 2019-2020 Transfer Thread***

  • Fanatics -

    Thank you for your patience today and welcome to the newest version of Cyclone Fanatic!

    Most of the changes we have made are very simple, but will greatly improve your user experience while visiting the website.

    We have upgraded our forum software to speed things up. Our homepage is much cleaner and should be even more mobile friendly than before.

    We appreciate your loyalty and are committed to not only keeping Cyclone Fanatic in tip-top shape, but continuing to build this community for the next decade and beyond.

    We ask that if you are experiences any glitches to let us know in this thread . Will will be diligently working on the site all day.

    Thanks again.

    Chris Williams - Publisher

moores2

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2018
1,106
760
113
27
Does JCL have good reviews defensively?
From the games I have watched, DePaul was sound defensively. He wasn't their best defensive player, but at least played a role in what was a efficient defense. Makes me believe he can hold his own with multiple defensive sets without getting confused. Might be a step slow on ball, but helps and is in the right spot to make a play most of the time.
 

ILikeCy

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2008
1,353
940
113
Omaha
From the games I have watched, DePaul was sound defensively. He wasn't their best defensive player, but at least played a role in what was a efficient defense. Makes me believe he can hold his own with multiple defensive sets without getting confused. Might be a step slow on ball, but helps and is in the right spot to make a play most of the time.
Bart Torvik has Depaul as the #56 defensive team last year, compared to #148 for ISU. So yes, they were a respectable defensive team. Although it is notable that 8 Big 12 teams ranked better than Depaul defensively.

https://barttorvik.com/trank.php?so...conlimit=&year=2020&top=0&hteam=&quad=5&rpi=#
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
17,321
20,564
113
Washington, DC

WhoISthis

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Oct 6, 2010
1,612
547
113
From the games I have watched, DePaul was sound defensively. He wasn't their best defensive player, but at least played a role in what was a efficient defense. Makes me believe he can hold his own with multiple defensive sets without getting confused. Might be a step slow on ball, but helps and is in the right spot to make a play most of the time.
We’ll see. It’s hard to project defense contributions. Outside of adding individual plays like shot blocking, a good defender added to a bad defense is kind of wasted. Better than adding a poor defender, but hard for one guy to change a defense. We need some of these new guys to come in with leadership on that end.

We’re going to miss Haliburton on that side. He probably freelanced a little too much, but his instincts for help defense and length were elite.

I searched DePaul and Illinois boards, and the comments were sparse on defense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Halincandenza

Messi

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 25, 2011
4,669
8,111
113
Cedar Rapids

using https://www.espn.com/mens-college-b...-basketball-transfer-rankings-2019-20-2020-21

i found 15 grad transfers that went from one of the following 7 conferences to another
  • ACC
  • AAC
  • Big East
  • Big 10
  • Big 12
  • SEC
  • Pac 12

I figured this would be interesting to look at since ISU already has two players in the fold that fit this criteria and are recruiting two more. I also think its easier to project production from a player that has "high major" experience (however you want to qualify that) coming to ISU than a player coming from a mid or low major
Screen Shot 2020-06-03 at 11.12.48 AM.png
 
Last edited:

ChickenNuggetMan

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2017
442
813
93
28
Minneapolis
A further demonstration of how pitiful our "defense" was last year.

Our defense was offensive.
Our worst ranking (148) by a wide margin of any year on BartTorvik.

FWIW: It currently projects us to be 143 next year, good for second worst ever. We still sorely need some roster changes or it’s going to be a frustrating year.
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
17,321
20,564
113
Washington, DC
Our worst ranking (148) by a wide margin of any year on BartTorvik.

FWIW: It currently projects us to be 143 next year, good for second worst ever. We still sorely need some roster changes or it’s going to be a frustrating year.
I am less worried about that than the #143 would suggest on its own.

Bart Torvik projects defense based on two things --

Roster height.

Hey why not just assume last year happens again? Got a better idea?

That might seem underwhelming for a methodology but, unlike offensive efficiencies for individual players, team defense is harder to project. He kind of throws up his hands and says, "Well, Texas Tech, West Virginia, and Virginia were really good at defense last year and the year before that and the year before that and Iowa State is usually bad at it, so no reason to glue the plate to the table when gravity holds it there for you."

He does that and makes some slight adjustments for changes in aggregate roster height weighted by projected playing time and... that is everything.

I normally do not have too much of a problem with that methodology, and I do not expect Iowa State to be an excellent defensive team next year. However, could we maybe at least get back to being okay/acceptably bad at it like we were during the years when we made the NCAA tournament under Coach Hoiberg and Coach Prohm?

If we could do that, which I think we could through additions by subtraction and better team discipline, athleticism, and size across the roster, then we might not be frankly embarrassing on defense like last year. We might in fact just be a mundane sort of mediocre, which would be enough to rebound as a program if the offense keeps cookin'.

If we were in the #50 to #75 range, then it would be fine. You might even be able to survive as long as you keep it under #100 if the offense is good enough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Messi

WhoISthis

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Oct 6, 2010
1,612
547
113
Our worst ranking (148) by a wide margin of any year on BartTorvik.

FWIW: It currently projects us to be 143 next year, good for second worst ever. We still sorely need some roster changes or it’s going to be a frustrating year.
Roster changes will hopefully help, but it’s clearly not a strength of this staff. Team defense is sloppy, ball screens in particular. Which is probably why need to play as many long wings as possible rather than the two bigs with a small backcourt that we had in 2017-18 and 2019-20. A lot easier to execute “switch everything”.

If we added Smith and Gach, it would be discouraging to not have a top-40 defense. The length and roster flexibility would be some of the best we’ve ever had on that side.
 
Last edited:

CyberJJJ

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Dec 19, 2006
1,868
924
113
Johnston, IA
Offense in the NBA, especially in the playoffs, is essentially...

-- find the weak link on defense
-- find a mismatch or exploit on them
-- exploit them until they change something
-- if they do not change, then drill them on it until they do

College offenses are increasingly learning that lesson, too. Teams were obviously doing it against us when we had Lewis (and Griffin) on the floor.

I am glad the players in your pick-up league had internalized that strategy.

:)

I have said this before on here, but we mostly talk about our offense. However, our offense was fine last year. It was good even. Our defense was atrocious. Our various lineup, roster construction, and recruiting conversations need to ask, "Who could this guy guard at the B12 level?" way more often than they actually do right now.
Well said Sigmapolis. I laugh thinking back to the time I found myself guarding Victor Alexander in the post...his arse was half a mile wide! Thank goodness he didn't feel the need to hook me with his elbow like he did others in games!

I remember an interview one time with Jordan and Barkley. Jordan was talking about how bad of an on ball defender Charles was. Barkley mentioned one time in a game when he switched onto Jordan and scared him into passing the ball, and Jordan countered he was laughing so hard at Charles' serious look thinking he could actually mark him that he had to pass the ball.

I believe our offense was better last year than many give it credit for. What we lacked was the guy that could take over the game, or when the shot clock wound down, you could count on to go get a bucket. You could give it to Niang or Fizer and say go get me a bucket. When he was in that mode, Burton literally took over games (think second half of Purdue game) and we knew Shayock came through time and again. We had less success with that last year, even when the set offense was fairly efficient. We also had more mid-range jump shooting and it seemed less offensive rebounding, but defensive rebounding was a more glaring gap, especially with so many blow-by-matador-defense moments and no rim protector at center much of the time.
 
Last edited:

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
17,321
20,564
113
Washington, DC
Well said Sigmapolis. I laugh thinking back to the time I found my self guarding Victor Alexander in the post...his arse was half a mile wide! Thank goodness he didn't feel the need to hook me with his elbow like he did others in games!

I remember an interview one time with Jordan and Barkley. Jordan was talking about how bad of an on ball defender Charles was. Barkley mentioned one time in a game when he switched onto Jordan and scared him into passing the ball, and Jordan said he was laughing so hard at Charles' serious look thinking he could actually mark him that he had to pass the ball.

I believe our offense was better last year than many give it credit for. What we lacked was the guy that could take over the game, or when the shot clock wound down, you could count on to go get a bucket. You could give it to Niang or Fizer and say go get me a bucket. When he was in that mode, Burton literally took over games (think second half of Purdue game) and we knew Shayock came through time and again. We had less success with that last year, even when the set offense was fairly efficient. We also had more midrange jump shooting and it seemed less offensive rebounding, but defensive rebounding was a more glaring gap, especially with so many blow-by-matador-defense moments and no rim protector at center much of the time.
That MJ story is pretty funny. Arrogant dude, but that is what we love about him, and I can completely see him doing that to screw with Barkley.

I tend to think the "we need an alpha" thing is more perception than reality. A point scored in the first four minutes in your "regular" offense counts just as much as your alpha scorer manufacturing points against tight coverage late in the game. If your offense is good enough and consistent enough throughout the game, then you should not need late game heroics. You should have a lead that you can carefully nurture and protect until the clock winds down and you win your game. For instance, if the offense was a little better throughout the Purdue game, then we are not playing from behind the whole time.

What you said about defense was spot on. Last season was so ugly. We were just awful at everything -- man-to-man assignments, rotations, boxing out, cleaning up the defensive glass, being tough and sticking with it, not letting failures go to our head, learning from mistakes, just everything. I think the worst part was not getting back and giving up easy break points. That is what is rotten and needs fixed about the team.
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
17,321
20,564
113
Washington, DC
Roster changes will hopefully help, but it’s clearly not a strength of this staff. Team defense is sloppy, ball screens in particular. Which is probably why need to play as many long wings as possible rather than the two bigs with a small backcourt that we had in 2017-18 and 2019-20. A lot easier to execute “switch everything”.

If we added Smith and Gach, it would be discouraging to not have a top-40 defense. The length and roster flexibility would be some of the best we’ve ever had on that side.
To defend the staff, everybody just wants to switch everything now if they can. It is the optimal defense if you can get away with it and not create mismatches that the other team can exploit and kill you with a few seconds later.

If you can switch everything... you kill the PnR and prevent mismatches against you... which are the two best ways to run a basketball offense in 2020. Being able to take that way from teams is incredibly powerful -- everybody wants it.
 

Statefan10

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
May 20, 2019
8,243
5,694
113
25
To defend the staff, everybody just wants to switch everything now if they can. It is the optimal defense if you can get away with it and not create mismatches that the other team can exploit and kill you with a few seconds later.

If you can switch everything... you kill the PnR and prevent mismatches against you... which are the two best ways to run a basketball offense in 2020. Being able to take that way from teams is incredibly powerful -- everybody wants it.
Which therein lies how big it would be to get Justin Smith. Watching some full games I saw him able to defend guards well on the perimeter while still being able to hold his own in the paint.
 

WhoISthis

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Oct 6, 2010
1,612
547
113
To defend the staff, everybody just wants to switch everything now if they can. It is the optimal defense if you can get away with it and not create mismatches that the other team can exploit and kill you with a few seconds later.

If you can switch everything... you kill the PnR and prevent mismatches against you... which are the two best ways to run a basketball offense in 2020. Being able to take that way from teams is incredibly powerful -- everybody wants it.
Is that a defense?

Better staffs don’t fall to the depths of last year’s defense when absent the players to switch everything. Several in the top-40 aren’t even close to switching everything.

It’s not just in-game failure. Defense is as much recruiting and development, whether that be the optimal switch everything, or more conventional. Hoiberg is known as an offensive guy, but he embraced having more wings over chasing bigs. We ended up needing to play two bigs in two out of three years. Hopefully the class of 2020 and this offseason is a sign that the staff has adjusted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: isubb79

Cyclonepride

Thought Police
Staff member
Apr 11, 2006
87,605
39,338
113
50
A pineapple under the sea
www.oldschoolradical.com
We’ll see. It’s hard to project defense contributions. Outside of adding individual plays like shot blocking, a good defender added to a bad defense is kind of wasted. Better than adding a poor defender, but hard for one guy to change a defense. We need some of these new guys to come in with leadership on that end.

We’re going to miss Haliburton on that side. He probably freelanced a little too much, but his instincts for help defense and length were elite.

I searched DePaul and Illinois boards, and the comments were sparse on defense.
One bad defender can definitely make a defense as a whole worse.
 

CyberJJJ

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Dec 19, 2006
1,868
924
113
Johnston, IA
To defend the staff, everybody just wants to switch everything now if they can. It is the optimal defense if you can get away with it and not create mismatches that the other team can exploit and kill you with a few seconds later.

If you can switch everything... you kill the PnR and prevent mismatches against you... which are the two best ways to run a basketball offense in 2020. Being able to take that way from teams is incredibly powerful -- everybody wants it.
In one of the conversations CW had with Niang, he talked about an NBA game he was in and got switched off onto James Harden who called for the ball as soon as he saw Georges on him. I believe I remember Georges making some comment that of course Harden does that to everyone so it wasn't personal.
 

CyberJJJ

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Dec 19, 2006
1,868
924
113
Johnston, IA
To defend the staff, everybody just wants to switch everything now if they can. It is the optimal defense if you can get away with it and not create mismatches that the other team can exploit and kill you with a few seconds later.

If you can switch everything... you kill the PnR and prevent mismatches against you... which are the two best ways to run a basketball offense in 2020. Being able to take that way from teams is incredibly powerful -- everybody wants it.
Hopefully our on ball defense improves. Certainly from a roster standpoint it feels like we are getting more length, which hopefully means we have more potential shot blocking ability on ball and on the back-end help.
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
17,321
20,564
113
Washington, DC
Is that a defense?

Better staffs don’t fall to the depths of last year’s defense when absent the players to switch everything. Several in the top-40 aren’t even close to switching everything.

It’s not just in-game failure. Defense is as much recruiting and development, whether that be the optimal switch everything, or more conventional. Hoiberg is known as an offensive guy, but he embraced having more wings over chasing bigs. We ended up needing to play two bigs in two out of three years. Hopefully the class of 2020 and this offseason is a sign that the staff has adjusted.
You seemed to say, "Oh, they're just going after rangy wing types who can switch everything as a crutch because they can't teach real defense."

Well, everybody wants that crutch right now. How much of it is a crutch against bad coaching and how much of it is intelligent roster construction?

Can one really tell the difference sometimes? One could spin that as an intelligent adjustment against their own shortcomings. If you got a hook, aim right.

You are right about last year just being an unmitigated disaster.