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Not a great clip for Fred...

Tornado man said:
Except Butler already has - and I think that he and Wade airing their gripes and dirty laundry to the press shows they have no respect for Hoiberg, and don't trust him to fix it. If there was respect for the team, coaching staff, and culture, they would keep it in house.
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I don't think NBA players understand what a coach is, quite frankly. They think they are the star and everything revolves around themselves, if something isn't working, it is because 1. because management didn't bring the right players in to play with them, 2. the other players don't mesh with their "style," or 3. the coach.

Never do they fault their their own self-controlled issues such as shooting %, ft %, turnovers, etc. The culture of the NBA player is incredibly self-centered in general.

There was a saying/joke that ran around for quite a while that a smart women marries an NFL player, not an NBA player, because the only NBA player who doesn't cheat on his wife was Grant Hill.

The fact that Butler and other players used to run their mouths about Thibs being TOO demanding, them management hires a "players" player, now they complain he isn't demanding enough, tells me where the blame lies.
 
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srjclone said:
I haven't taken the time to read through all the posts, so sorry if I am repeating. But this is a bigger sign of Jimmy doing his own thing, because as has been seen in the past, Fred is one of the best at running plays for buckets out of TO's. So saying no to your coach, who has the ability to draw up a play for you in a late game situation to get a good shot, is a selfish player acting stubborn. Idk if I have ever thought, "what? no." while watching/playing in a game where the coach wants to call a time out with possession late in the game. I know Thibs likes to let them play and not call TO's in lg situations, but see how that worked out for his T-Wolves team that lost all 10 of their games decided by 4 or fewer points up until last weekend. If you have them, use them, stop doing your own thing Jimmy.
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Not in the NBA he isn't.

http://www.blogabull.com/2016/3/17/11250270/the-bulls-after-time-out-execution-has-been-abysmal
 
runbikeswim said:
I don't think NBA players understand what a coach is, quite frankly. They think they are the star and everything revolves around themselves, if something isn't working, it is because 1. because management didn't bring the right players in to play with them, 2. the other players don't mesh with their "style," or 3. the coach.

Never do they fault their their own self-controlled issues such as shooting %, ft %, turnovers, etc. The culture of the NBA player is incredibly self-centered in general.

There was a saying/joke that ran around for quite a while that a smart women marries an NFL player, not an NBA player, because the only NBA player who doesn't cheat on his wife was Grant Hill.

The fact that Butler and other players used to run their mouths about Thibs being TOO demanding, them management hires a "players" player, now they complain he isn't demanding enough, tells me where the blame lies.
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This really depends on the team. Golden State is not like this at all. Cavs aren't either. Atlanta from a couple years ago wasn't either. San Antonio isn't either. The problem starts when you have me first players that you don't keep in check by coach and front office. See Chicago, Knicks, Phoenix, and Kings.
 
megamanxzero35 said:
This really depends on the team. Golden State is not like this at all. Cavs aren't either. Atlanta from a couple years ago wasn't either. San Antonio isn't either. The problem starts when you have me first players that you don't keep in check by coach and front office. See Chicago, Knicks, Phoenix, and Kings.
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Cavs aren't - have you missed all the drama about Lebron whining about management not bringing in Carmelo this week? Or his hissy fits to get Kevin Love previously? or the dirty looks Lebron gives his coach.

Spurs I'll grant you.
 
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VeloClone said:
Fact - expectations are higher both at KU and nationally for KU so the coach there better have a top 1 or 2 team in the conference every year
Fact - you'd better be getting some of the very top recruits and a few more from the next tier every year

How forgiving do you think the KU fan base and administration would have been if Bill had come in second on all of the very top echelon recruits for several years running like Fred was doing?



It makes me ill that I am having to advocate for Bill Self right now.


I guess maybe look at it another way. If Fred wanted to get the same recruits at KU as he got at ISU he could not work as hard recruiting. That isn't what is required to be successful at KU, however.
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I don't think we are that far off- I agree with all that you say but if Fred had a better chance to land studs, I think he would return to the college game. KU provides that chance.

I never said he would not have to work at all. I stand by what I said, Fred would not have to work as hard at attracting big talent to Lawrence as he did Ames. Of course, he still would have to work but he would also get a greater return on his time. I do not see how you can disagree with that other than to pick a fight.

I have yet to mention the $$$$ or extra perks that KU boosters provide without knowledge. (I have zero intention of even defending this so don't bother starting)
 
I've said it once and will say it again, Fred is too nice and mild mannered to be an effective coach at the D1 and NBA level. Nothing wrong with that either. Is what it is. He's a great and likable guy, but missing what it takes to get through to arrogant a-holes you see in the NBA and most big-time college programs. Just my opinion.
 
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cytheguy said:
I've said it once and will say it again, Fred is too nice and mild mannered to be an effective coach at the D1 and NBA level. Nothing wrong with that either. Is what it is. He's a great and likable guy, but missing what it takes to get through to arrogant a-holes you see in the NBA and most big-time college programs. Just my opinion.
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Even the harshest critic would say Fred was effective at ISU.
 
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Land Shark said:
I don't think we are that far off- I agree with all that you say but if Fred had a better chance to land studs, I think he would return to the college game. KU provides that chance.

I never said he would not have to work at all. I stand by what I said, Fred would not have to work as hard at attracting big talent to Lawrence as he did Ames. Of course, he still would have to work but he would also get a greater return on his time. I do not see how you can disagree with that other than to pick a fight.

I have yet to mention the $$$$ or extra perks that KU boosters provide without knowledge. (I have zero intention of even defending this so don't bother starting)
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I agree we are closer than it may have initially appeared. Maybe my initial post was misinterpreted I never intended a fight but thought you were with your Fact, Fact, Fact post. I agree Fred could get a higher return with his effort but would still have to do all he can possibly muster to get the results necessary to achieve what would be considered success at KU.

As far as extra benefits go, the fact that they found a way to circumvent the rules for years with their fan graduation gifts to donors tells me all all I need to know. That being said, chicanery may tip the scales in the end but will never replace hard all out recruiting.

I'm done derailing this thread.
 
srjclone said:
I haven't taken the time to read through all the posts, so sorry if I am repeating. But this is a bigger sign of Jimmy doing his own thing, because as has been seen in the past, Fred is one of the best at running plays for buckets out of TO's. So saying no to your coach, who has the ability to draw up a play for you in a late game situation to get a good shot, is a selfish player acting stubborn. Idk if I have ever thought, "what? no." while watching/playing in a game where the coach wants to call a time out with possession late in the game. I know Thibs likes to let them play and not call TO's in lg situations, but see how that worked out for his T-Wolves team that lost all 10 of their games decided by 4 or fewer points up until last weekend. If you have them, use them, stop doing your own thing Jimmy.
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Fred has been terrible at our if bounds plays in the NBA.
 
VeloClone said:
Fred was successful because he was willing to take players who had issues elsewhere but could play the game. He was wildly successful with this, but to expect he would be universally successful is unreasonable. Just making the Royce White experiment work for as long as it did was an accomplishment unlike any other.
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This. Fred got lucky it worked. He is a great coach but took a lot of chances and they worked out well.
 
Bader said:
If Hoiberg gets fired, I'd be happy if Prohm tried to get Charlie Henry to come back. Dude is an offensive genius. Dunno who'd they move out of an assistant spot though.
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Is he or were we just told that.
 
kingcy said:
He took chances on guys that had baggage and didn't have a lot of options. It could have went the other way.
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True, but they did a lot of vetting to swing the odds in their favor. By all accounts there were several players they could have had and passed on because they thought the player hadn't accepted responsibility/changed.
 
VeloClone said:
True, but they did a lot of vetting to swing the odds in their favor. By all accounts there were several players they could have had and passed on because they thought the player hadn't accepted responsibility/changed.
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I need a shower after saying something positive about KU. Good discussion tho- thx
 
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