Open up the check book, Mr. Pollard

[cycloneworld]

Then when he leaves, you should be on here defending that stance.

You see dollars in a contract, the reality is he's brought that to the university ten fold.

So if we lose him because of unwillingness to compensate him at market value determined by what people are willing to pay, I expect you, and stormin to be here arguing it's ok to go back to McDermott era quality, because it's affordable.

Again, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a raise (check my previous posts). I'm saying we shouldn't just give him the keys to our vault. We can't compete with the NBA. So if he wants to go, he will go and there won't be anything we can do about it. We cannot pay $5 million per year or anywhere close to that. Our advantage is the length and total $$$ of a deal.

There is no way Hoiberg brings back 10-fold what he is paid. Not even close. He will average $2 mil under his current contract, you think he brings $20 million to the AD? The information I found was a few years old but Kentucky brought in a total of $14 mil. Kansas $15 mil. Duke $11.8 mil. Iowa State? $6.2 mil. That certainly has grown since 2010-11 but not exponentially.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/18/news/companies/basketball_profits/
http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/12/20/big-xii-financials-10-11/

10-fold? Not even close.

We can't emotionally spend and throw money at coaches because they've had a sweet 16 run. That would be fiscally irresponsible of the AD. I'm confident Hoiberg will be taken care of but it shouldn't be by throwing a blank check at him.

 

[Spam]

Give him the least amount of money that it will take to keep him here.

Or

Give him the absolute most we can afford to pay him.

Or

Give him a fair share of what he brings to the university.

 

[Jer]

It's as simple as this - pay him fair market value and do everything else possible to keep him and his assistants happy. That's all that we can do or control.

If Fred wants to make $5 million a year, he'll go to the NBA. If he wants to coach in the NBA regardless of money, he'll go to the NBA.

It is all an assumption that he wants to coach in the NBA because he was so valued in the front office. BUT, for all we know, he may resent the constant coaching changes and moves of the NBA and what that would do to such a family oriented man.

To me, it's simple. Control what we can, do what we can above and beyond money, and hope/pray that his heart has him staying at ISU for decades to come.

 

[SammyWild]

Again, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a raise (check my previous posts). I'm saying we shouldn't just give him the keys to our vault. We can't compete with the NBA. So if he wants to go, he will go and there won't be anything we can do about it. We cannot pay $5 million per year or anywhere close to that. Our advantage is the length and total $$$ of a deal.

There is no way Hoiberg brings back 10-fold what he is paid. Not even close. He will average $2 mil under his current contract, you think he brings $20 million to the AD? The information I found was a few years old but Kentucky brought in a total of $14 mil. Kansas $15 mil. Duke $11.8 mil. Iowa State? $6.2 mil. That certainly has grown since 2010-11 but not exponentially.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/18/news/companies/basketball_profits/
http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/12/20/big-xii-financials-10-11/

10-fold? Not even close.

We can't emotionally spend and throw money at coaches because they've had a sweet 16 run. That would be fiscally irresponsible of the AD. I'm confident Hoiberg will be taken care of but it shouldn't be by throwing a blank check at him.

Notice I said university, not AD. So you can retract that statement.

But as I said later, all that really matters is that Iowa State, Pollard and the AD donations, make sure that they do everything in their power to make sure Fred has what he wants. If they do that, and he still leaves, then he wanted to go.

Cael left, not entirely because of money (although that did play a part). He left because of commitment. Psu gave him a wrestling only facility, and allowed him to make more money on the outside than he could have here. Add the fertile recruiting grounds in the northeast. And it's a match made in heaven.

That lack of total commitment cannot happen in this case.

 

[Stormin]

I think it is apparent that after redoing Fred's contract twice in the last 2 years that we are paying him pretty well and pretty fairly. That doesn't rule out another redo this year while extending the contract. But I really don't see the money changing a whole lot. And I don't think we would offer $3 million plus per season since only 7 coaches in the college ranks make that kind of money now. They have generally coached National Champions and been to Final Fours and considered icons of coaching. Fred is not in that category......yet.

IMO, Fred gets it. It is less about maximizing income and more about maximizing happiness in your life. IMO, we continue to make Fred and his assistants happy while offering the setting where life is enjoyable and happy.

Having a job you love at a place you love with the people you love is Priceless. No amount of money can sway you away. If Fred leaves it will be for reasons other than money. I can honestly visualize Fred being here for a long, long time.

 

[cycloneworld]

Cael left, not entirely because of money (although that did play a part). He left because of commitment. Psu gave him a wrestling only facility, and allowed him to make more money on the outside than he could have here. Add the fertile recruiting grounds in the northeast. And it's a match made in heaven.

That lack of total commitment cannot happen in this case.

Has the University or AD done ANYTHING to show there is a lack of commitment for basketball? That shouldn't even be part of this discussion IMO.

And even though you did say University, there is no way Hoiberg brings in $20 million per year to Iowa State. No chance. So your statement is still inaccurate.

 

[mustangcy]

It's as simple as this - pay him fair market value and do everything else possible to keep him and his assistants happy. That's all that we can do or control.

If Fred wants to make $5 million a year, he'll go to the NBA. If he wants to coach in the NBA regardless of money, he'll go to the NBA.

It is all an assumption that he wants to coach in the NBA because he was so valued in the front office. BUT, for all we know, he may resent the constant coaching changes and moves of the NBA and what that would do to such a family oriented man.

To me, it's simple. Control what we can, do what we can above and beyond money, and hope/pray that his heart has him staying at ISU for decades to come.

This pretty much nails it. With that said I couldn't help but notice Fred's wife after the Baylor win in the Big 12 championship. She leaned down to a friend or family member and you could easily read her lips say "I'm so happy". I know that doesn't mean everything but I think Fred's wife is loving life right now...I think his kids are loving life right now, his parents (especially after you watch Andy Fales piece on them this week) are loving life right now. I don't expect any of that to change anytime soon. Fred stays in Ames and I'm almost facininated so many ISU fans don't see that.

 

[Stormin]

This pretty much nails it. With that said I couldn't help but notice Fred's wife after the Baylor win in the Big 12 championship. She leaned down to a friend or family member and you could easily read her lips say "I'm so happy". I know that doesn't mean everything but I think Fred's wife is loving life right now...I think his kids are loving life right now, his parents (especially after you watch Andy Fales piece on them this week) are loving life right now. I don't expect any of that to change anytime soon. Fred stays in Ames and I'm almost facininated so many ISU fans don't see that.

Yep. Many people have spurned the big bucks in exchange for quality of life. IMO, Fred is one of those kinds of people. Except in Fred's case, he is making very good money here at ISU. Consider also that Fred has car dealerships here in Iowa as well. I really don't see Fred leaving anytime soon. Consider his mentors, Tim Floyd, Larry Brown, Johnny Orr, etc., etc. I am sure that Tim and Larry can tell Fred that he has a real good thing going here at Iowa State. And the allure of the NBA can be a very fleeting moment that one can later regret.

I remember the words of Earle Bruce, who left ISU to coach at his alma mater Ohio State. He said he never should have left Iowa State. He had redshirted his last entire recruiting class and had it going.

 

[Spam]

How much would we have paid an "outsider", say, a young guy like Brad Stevens if he was the ISU coach and having the same success as Hoiberg is having? What would it take to keep a Brad Stevens in Ames, and stop him from bolting to the NBA?

If we're not paying Fred the same just because the Hoibergs love Ames, or just because we don't think Hoiberg is as interested in the NBA as Stevens might have been, we're being d**ks.

 

[swarthmoreCY]

How much would we have paid an "outsider", say, a young guy like Brad Stevens if he was the ISU coach and having the same success as Hoiberg is having? What would it take to keep a Brad Stevens in Ames, and stop him from bolting to the NBA?

If we're not paying ISU the same just because the Hoibergs love Ames, or just because we don't think Hoiberg is as interested in the NBA as Stevens might have been, we're being d**ks.

Yep, and risking losing a lot for little reward.

 

[VeloClone]

How much would we have paid an "outsider", say, a young guy like Brad Stevens if he was the ISU coach and having the same success as Hoiberg is having? What would it take to keep a Brad Stevens in Ames, and stop him from bolting to the NBA?

If we're not paying Fred the same just because the Hoibergs love Ames, or just because we don't think Hoiberg is as interested in the NBA as Stevens might have been, we're being d**ks.

But if we are investing that savings into the program with Fred's blessing we are being the best stewards of Fred's program we can be.

 

[CYKOFAN]

Gable wanted to be an assistant to Nichols and hoped to be given the head coaching job when Nichols retired. And the story goes that when he was training for the Olympics in 1972 the ISU athletic department balked at paying for the tape Gable needed to tape his ankles. University of Iowa was hoping to make inroads with Gable and an Iowa trainer supposedly sent him a box with about $100 of tape. University of Iowa offered Gable an assistant coaching job and assured him that Kurdlemeier would be retiring soon and the Head Coaching job would be his.

You can believe what you want, but Pollard and Cael both said that Cael thought it would be easier to win a National Championship at Penn State. Read the link.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/spor...wrestling-sanderson-penn-state_N.htm?csp=N009

At least we can agree we never had Gable as our head coach to lose as we did Sanderson. IF the tape story is true, it's sad, but I suspect it's just more of a good story and Gable more likely left because he was promised he could become the head coach much sooner at Iowa as Nichols wasn't considering retirement anytime soon at ISU. And Cael probably did think he had a better chance to win national titles at Penn State with their great facilities and strong commitment to wrestling, why wouldn't he. He was also watching losing coaches like GMac and Chiz getting extensions and bigger raises than his whole salary while they ran their programs into the ground, why wouldn't he feel slighted? And if comments by you and Veloclone are indicative of what the administration thinks about wrestling, no wonder he left. Again I know the company spin, just not buying all of it. And I see in the register that Fred's salary is #8 out of 10 Big 12 coaches, and that has to change drastically. Keep telling yourself that Fred loves Ames (which he no doubt does) and the money isn't that big a deal to him, but he's got a heart condition and a young family to think of and you need to use whatever influence you have in administration to make sure we don't lose another one of our legends.

 

[im4cyclones]

At least we can agree we never had Gable as our head coach to lose as we did Sanderson. IF the tape story is true, it's sad, but I suspect it's just more of a good story and Gable more likely left because he was promised he could become the head coach much sooner at Iowa as Nichols wasn't considering retirement anytime soon at ISU. And Cael probably did think he had a better chance to win national titles at Penn State with their great facilities and strong commitment to wrestling, why wouldn't he. He was also watching losing coaches like GMac and Chiz getting extensions and bigger raises than his whole salary while they ran their programs into the ground, why wouldn't he feel slighted? And if comments by you and Veloclone are indicative of what the administration thinks about wrestling, no wonder he left. Again I know the company spin, just not buying all of it. And I see in the register that Fred's salary is #8 out of 10 Big 12 coaches, and that has to change drastically. Keep telling yourself that Fred loves Ames (which he no doubt does) and the money isn't that big a deal to him, but he's got a heart condition and a young family to think of and you need to use whatever influence you have in administration to make sure we don't lose another one of our legends.

First, wasn't he already one of the highest paid coaches in all of college wrestling? I would think he would have to understand the economics of his sport.

Second, those coaches you mention ran sports programs that actually produced revenue. His didn't.

 

[CYKOFAN]

First, wasn't he already one of the highest paid coaches in all of college wrestling? I would think he would have to understand the economics of his sport.

Second, those coaches you mention ran sports programs that actually produced revenue. His didn't.

I've said before, Cael is famous nationally as the best collegiate wrestler of all time and is well known throughout wrestling worldwide. He's an ISU legend and his name and association with the Cyclones has value to ISU in ways other than market value. Unfortunately he's now going to become more and more associated with Penn State.

 

[heitclone]

This pretty much nails it. With that said I couldn't help but notice Fred's wife after the Baylor win in the Big 12 championship. She leaned down to a friend or family member and you could easily read her lips say "I'm so happy". I know that doesn't mean everything but I think Fred's wife is loving life right now...I think his kids are loving life right now, his parents (especially after you watch Andy Fales piece on them this week) are loving life right now. I don't expect any of that to change anytime soon. Fred stays in Ames and I'm almost facininated so many ISU fans don't see that.

Agree, completely, Fred played in the NBA for a decade and was compensated fairly well. I dont think money is the be all end all for Fred. Another big thing is NBA head coach isn't the most coveted job, those spots are a revolving door. If Fred were to leave, it'd be for a GM job or a head coaching job with total control. Fred knows the NBA landscape far too well to get caught up in the coaching meat grinder. With that said, he will get a raise at ISU. Pry several over the next few years.

 

[SammyWild]

Has the University or AD done ANYTHING to show there is a lack of commitment for basketball? That shouldn't even be part of this discussion IMO.

And even though you did say University, there is no way Hoiberg brings in $20 million per year to Iowa State. No chance. So your statement is still inaccurate.

Nice to see you're changing the argument again.

If you can't understand how much money this tournament run had been, and will continue to be worth to the university as a whole, you can ask and I'll explain it to you.

 

[Stormin]

At least we can agree we never had Gable as our head coach to lose as we did Sanderson. IF the tape story is true, it's sad, but I suspect it's just more of a good story and Gable more likely left because he was promised he could become the head coach much sooner at Iowa as Nichols wasn't considering retirement anytime soon at ISU. And Cael probably did think he had a better chance to win national titles at Penn State with their great facilities and strong commitment to wrestling, why wouldn't he. He was also watching losing coaches like GMac and Chiz getting extensions and bigger raises than his whole salary while they ran their programs into the ground, why wouldn't he feel slighted? And if comments by you and Veloclone are indicative of what the administration thinks about wrestling, no wonder he left. Again I know the company spin, just not buying all of it. And I see in the register that Fred's salary is #8 out of 10 Big 12 coaches, and that has to change drastically. Keep telling yourself that Fred loves Ames (which he no doubt does) and the money isn't that big a deal to him, but he's got a heart condition and a young family to think of and you need to use whatever influence you have in administration to make sure we don't lose another one of our legends.

Never claimed Gable was our head coach. And Gable did leave ISU because he was given a job as an assistant coach with the promise that Kurdlemeier would be retiring soon. The tape story is just an example of how Gable was being treated by ISU at the time. Nichols gave no hint that he was planning to retire soon. And Gable took the sure thing. Especially since he was not even being offered an Assistant Coaching job.

As far as Cael goes, he was competing and was given the resources he asked for as far as we know. It is not apparent that he asked for any of the things from ISU. Cael saw an opportunity to move to a hotbed of wrestling talent with No Big Name Rival in state to compete with. And to a school that had an Athletic Department Budget that dwarfed ISU's budget. So the fact remains, Cael thought it would be easier to win a National Championship at Penn State. A reason which he told Pollard was his reason for leaving.

As far as Fred, Fred makes a very good salary in looking at things nationwide and considering his experience and also results thus far. Most of the coaches in the Big 12 are much, much older and have been at their schools for much longer. And Fred is within a couple of hundred thousand of most. And with bonuses, could surpass some in any given year. I really don't think we are far off on the money and am not opposed to some further tweaking of his contract along with a raise and an extension. In exchange, I would like a bigger buyout concerning the NBA, since we are definitely increasing our investment in Fred. He is our man and I would like the same commitment from him that we are giving him.

And if Fred does make the Final Four? He gets a $250,000 bonus. In addition to the $50,000 for winning Big 12 Tourney. Plus $50,000 for making NCAA Tourney. Plus $25,000 for each NCAA Tourney victory.

So if Fred makes the Final Four he gets an additional $450,000 in bonus money. Not exactly chump change.

 

[Mr Janny]

I've said before, Cael is famous nationally as the best collegiate wrestler of all time and is well known throughout wrestling worldwide. He's an ISU legend and his name and association with the Cyclones has value to ISU in ways other than market value. Unfortunately he's now going to become more and more associated with Penn State.

And the vast majority of sports fans in this country could barely tell you who he is, or pick him out of a crowd, because wrestling DOESN'T MATTER. If Cael was looking at GMac or Chiz and asking why he wasn't making the same salary, then that's on him for not learning how to grab a rebound or throw a pass. That's just economics. Instead he chose a niche sport, with a tiny National fanbase. Do you think he was jealous of Bill O'Brien?

I'll say it again, drawing comparisons between Fred and Cael is silly. They're just not comparable. Cael was a nice story for ISU, but there's very little return on investing in his sport. Fred is an entirely different ball of wax. His presence actually has a significant impact on the University, it's bottom dollar, and exposure.

 

[SammyWild]

First, wasn't he already one of the highest paid coaches in all of college wrestling? I would think he would have to understand the economics of his sport.

Second, those coaches you mention ran sports programs that actually produced revenue. His didn't.

What Penn state offered we couldn't match. But when your AD (boss) shows a genuine lack of interest in the job you're doing, and when advise an offer received and they say good luck, you don't feel wanted. Cael did advise Pollard of the offer, and Jamie didn't offer any counter proposal. Cael left because of an offer he couldn't refuse, but Pollard did nothing to show him he was wanted, just like Kindig the gymnastics coach.

And seriously posting sanitized articles written years after the facts, and not understanding compensation packages, doesn't really bolster your argument.

 

[im4cyclones]

What Penn state offered we couldn't match. But when your AD (boss) shows a genuine lack of interest in the job you're doing, and when advise an offer received and they say good luck, you don't feel wanted. Cael did advise Pollard of the offer, and Jamie didn't offer any counter proposal. Cael left because of an offer he couldn't refuse, but Pollard did nothing to show him he was wanted, just like Kindig the gymnastics coach.

And seriously posting sanitized articles written years after the facts, and not understanding compensation packages, doesn't really bolster your argument.

Um... Didn't post any articles. Sorry.