I liken it to football. When the whistle blows it’s dead. Even if by mistake, play is not live. The missed front end on a two-shot foul should be no different.
Officiating question....
- Thread starter 4evertrue
- Start date
I'm chill, wasn't necessary directed towards you just the thread in general being a dead horse. Let's just beat down KU and their newly assigned NIL Refs tomorrow. Show em we don't need handouts.
There are two competing "correctable error" rulings on a play like the Homan FT.
IMO, they picked the wrong one (failing to award a merited free throw) instead of the right one (game clock running, dead ball).
The first allows everything that happens in the interim (the made 3) to stand. The second wipes everything off the board and we go back to where we should be (attempting FT #2).
IMO, they picked the wrong one (failing to award a merited free throw) instead of the right one (game clock running, dead ball).
The first allows everything that happens in the interim (the made 3) to stand. The second wipes everything off the board and we go back to where we should be (attempting FT #2).
Yeah, wouldn't that just be similar to the game clock guy forgot to stop the clock? It happened after the whistle and the clock ran, which gets reset nearly everytime when it's more than a second or so and especially if it's late in the game.
I've tried to lay it out on here before and gotten bashed, BUT here goes and I'll try to be brief:
I've watched the tape many times and I THINK I can hear the official erroneously announce a one-and-one. So, KU rebounds the miss, goes down and scores and the ISU players are standing around like WTF?
IF that is what happened, it becomes something called a "correctable error" for "failure to award a merited free throw." In that scenario, you award the free throw (which resulted in KU fans booing because the lane was cleared and they thought someone had been T'd up) and resume the game from the point at which the error was recognized. Unfortunately, no timing or scoring adjustments are allowed and any action that occurred during the interim stands.
THE MAJOR **** UP was the officials mistakenly awarding 1-and-1 instead of two and, yes, it was a major F up. As far as the correction goes -- and I know no one wants to hear this -- they did handle THAT part of the F up correctly, and that is what I think Self is referring to.
PS: In addition to the error the officials did a HORRIBLE job of explaining it to our bench, resulting in Wayne losing his mind, and justifiably so.
I've watched the tape many times and I THINK I can hear the official erroneously announce a one-and-one. So, KU rebounds the miss, goes down and scores and the ISU players are standing around like WTF?
IF that is what happened, it becomes something called a "correctable error" for "failure to award a merited free throw." In that scenario, you award the free throw (which resulted in KU fans booing because the lane was cleared and they thought someone had been T'd up) and resume the game from the point at which the error was recognized. Unfortunately, no timing or scoring adjustments are allowed and any action that occurred during the interim stands.
THE MAJOR **** UP was the officials mistakenly awarding 1-and-1 instead of two and, yes, it was a major F up. As far as the correction goes -- and I know no one wants to hear this -- they did handle THAT part of the F up correctly, and that is what I think Self is referring to.
PS: In addition to the error the officials did a HORRIBLE job of explaining it to our bench, resulting in Wayne losing his mind, and justifiably so.
There is no such correctable error as "game clock running, dead ball." Here are the five correctable errors from the rule book:
1. Failure to award a merited free throw
2. Awarding an unmerited free throw
3. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw
4. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket
5. Erroneously counting or canceling a score
It's in the 2005 rule book (I don't have 2004 handy), and is still in the 2023 case book.
Art. 2. When the officials’ error...is made while the game clock is running and the ball is dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live ball to be correctable.
RULING: When, in the official’s judgment, an error was made while the game clock was running, the goal shall be canceled. Since the clock was running in this case, the official has until the second live ball after the error to make the correction.
The above ruling is for a goal counted when the ball should have been dead.
That describes when a correctable error can be recognized. It does not refer to the definition of a correctable error.
If the clock is running during a dead ball, that is a timing or scoring error, which can always be fixed if the officials have definite knowledge of the mistake. Scoring and timing errors are not subject to the restrictions of a correctable error as far as by when they must be recognized.
In this case, because the officials, imo, erroneously awarded a 1-and-1 instead of two, no timing or scoring error officially occurred, which is why the action prior to recognition stands and the error had to be recognized at the next dead ball to be corrected.
It was a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR f up that absolutely should not happen at that level. It's simply that the error was made in a different spot than people think.
The error occurs with the game clock running during what should be a dead ball. The ruling details what happens in that situation ("the goal shall be canceled").
The fact that the rule book allows or disallows a goal during a dead ball depending on the clock status is asinine.
Edit: Because the officials erroneously awarded 1-and-1 instead of two, no error occurred with the clock running. The goal can't be cancelled because once it is recognized the correctable error procedure must be followed.
With respect, Mr. Shadow, you are misapplying the incorrect rule to the situation. I officiated over 20 years, including at the college level, the last 10 of which I was training and supervising officials. I know correctable errors like the back of my hand. Fortunately, I never had one in a game because I worked with great people who excelled at preventing them.
Last edited:
I remember this happening, although I'm glad I don't have to testify to anything in court because my memory isn't that clear anymore. However, I wonder if, when they saw the KU player racing down the floor, the scorekeeper/timer thought, "Oh, it's a live ball" and hit the button to start the clock. I'm not sure I've seen anything in all the discussions about when the clock started compared to when the player headed down court.
It doesn't matter now anyway.
It doesn't matter now anyway.
This. I think with clock review, replay technology, Flagrant reviews and "was his foot on the line" reviews changes all of this convo.
Get it right.
I'll never get over that. Just like I'll never get over the guy from the Packers slamming McMahon down on his shoulder 3-4 seconds after he threw the ball.
You already said that you think it was called 1-and-1 based on trying to hear nat sound underneath the TV announcers.
If it was called that way, and communicated that way at the line, why did no Iowa State player move initially on the miss? Vroman doesn't attempt a box out, Homan just stands there, Stinson doesn't react until after the KU player gets the rebound.
When the whistle comes immediately after the shot goes in, that tells me the officials already knew they ****** up, but instead of killing the play they let it finish. Frankly, it doesn't surprise me that between Hooker, O'Neill, and Janssen they let that happen.
Agree this is what should happen. Would require a rule change, but that should happen.
I'm saying you are wrong in your definition of a correctable error and how it applied to this situation.
Correct, I THINK I heard an official announce ONE shot. The remedy that was used would support that hypothesis.
We're all friends here. This is not personal.
Unfortunately the TV coverage of this play doesn't show the ref putting the ball into play for the FTs. If the ref erroneously signalled 1 and 1 rather than 2 shots that would explain why the KU players took the ball off the rim and headed the other way and also why the clock operator started the clock. If he did signal 1 and 1, an alert ISU player should have stepped in the lane and protested before he threw the ball to Jared or Jared should have asked before he shot the FT. The ISU players would have had a chance to call out the error if that is what happened but unfortunately they didn't. That is the only way I can think of all of the KU players being on the same page and heading the other way.
EDIT: I guess I should have kept reading the thread before commenting. I came to the same conclusion as ruxCYtable but I never think I hear the 1 and 1. It is just the only logical explanation I can find.
EDIT: I guess I should have kept reading the thread before commenting. I came to the same conclusion as ruxCYtable but I never think I hear the 1 and 1. It is just the only logical explanation I can find.
Last edited:
All I can say is we better work on our dead ball defense before we head to Lawrence. You just never know when the 3 referees, the official clock operator, the official score keeper, and the home team players and coaches are all going to make the same error at the same time.
