NBA: *** Official 2015 NBA Playoffs Thread ***

[Jambalaya]

I'm not saying Lebron is better than Jordan yet, but the Bulls still made the playoffs without him. .

No offense to you younger dudes, but if you're not at least 35 years old, you never experienced how dominating Jordan was. Watching YouTube, or bulls games when you were 8 yrs old doesn't count

His mind games, intimidation factor, his defense, his offense. His killer instincts in crunch time

LeBron is a physical freak and uber-talented, but can't approach the intangibles that Jordan possessed

LeBron looked defeated last night with the game still somewhat in doubt

 

[HFCS]

I think you are underselling Lebron a little bit. His effectiveness with his been lower with his back to the basket because GS isn't worried about the other scrubs on the floor. Give him a straight one-on-one and he'll go to work.

I said he should have been MVP and Finals MVP this year (even if they don't win) so obviously I think he is awesome and better than Steph Curry.

He is judged through the lens of the GOAT conversation. He does almost everything very very well. The one area where I see he could make a significant improvement is playing with his back to the basket. It'd be very useful right now when the rest of his team can't score for crap (because they lost something like 37ppg in injuries). Kobe and MJ retooled their games to become better back to the basket players as they got older. LeBron could be even better than either of them at it because he's longer, stronger, but still fast and agile. It's the biggest question for his future and how long he continues to dominate.

LeBron did post up a couple times last night but it's not a smooth polished game like the greatest big men or MJ/Kobe posting up. The great back to the basket players had nearly unstoppable moves. LBJ maybe didn't develop it since he's been able to play like a PG and facilitate, there's nobody to really facilitate for right now so if he had that game it would have helped in this series. I don't think Magic is in the goat discussion, but he had a similar body, played point a lot, but still had traditional post game too.

 

[HFCS]

No offense to you younger dudes, but if you're not at least 35 years old, you never experienced how dominating Jordan was. Watching YouTube, or bulls games when you were 8 yrs old doesn't count

His mind games, intimidation factor, his defense, his offense. His killer instincts in crunch time

LeBron is a physical freak and uber-talented, but can't approach the intangibles that Jordan possessed

LeBron looked defeated last night with the game still somewhat in doubt

The mental factor is the biggest thing, not just over LeBron but every player I've seen.

Above I posted about a back to the basket game because that's the only part of LBJ's actual game I think is missing compared to most other players in the top 5-10 discussion.

I honestly think LBJ is a little exhausted in this particular series as well, particularly the end of the last two games. How much of that is mental or physical nobody can tell. He certainly got played a bad hand of luck losing his two best teammates, this year isn't '11 or '07 where his production fell off in the Finals. He almost had a 20 point triple double at half time last night which is what Magic Johnson often had for a game in some finals.

 

[Wesley]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...clippers-make-risky-move-for-lance-stephenson Spot for Royce?

 

[baagoe]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...clippers-make-risky-move-for-lance-stephenson Spot for Royce?

Royce has a good shot at making the Clippers if he's in good shape & plays well. I also saw that his deal was only for the summer league to keep his options with other teams open. Really rooting for Royce.

 

[Omaha Cy]

No offense to you younger dudes, but if you're not at least 35 years old, you never experienced how dominating Jordan was. Watching YouTube, or bulls games when you were 8 yrs old doesn't count

His mind games, intimidation factor, his defense, his offense. His killer instincts in crunch time

LeBron is a physical freak and uber-talented, but can't approach the intangibles that Jordan possessed

LeBron looked defeated last night with the game still somewhat in doubt

Ugh, I was a Knicks fan in high school when Jordan started winning titles. It's hard to imagine that there will ever be another Jordan. What he had, it infected the rest of the team like no other influence I have ever seen on a basketball court. Those teams just did not lose. Also, Lebron and the heat were often in a 1 game to none hole or a 2-1 hole, before taking control of a series. That's some **** that Jordan RARELY ever found himself in. Another example of how Chicago steam rolled much harder than Miami did.

Toss out his late entry back into the NBA in 95(?) season, and Jordan won 24 consecutive NBA playoff series. 20 freaking 4!

I know some stuff gets bandied about how Jordan's teams were more talented than Lebron's, but C'mon. The Heat went to 4 straight finals with a big 3, and a host of fairly quality veterans every year off the bench. They went 2-2 in the finals. Got outworked by a pretty good Mavs team, but they sure as hell weren't an all time great squad. Got destroyed last year by the Spurs and were a miracle shot away from being 1-3 in the finals. Jordan's finals teams compared to the heat LEFT NO DOUBT who the champion was.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Ugh, I was a Knicks fan in high school when Jordan started winning titles. It's hard to imagine that there will ever be another Jordan. What he had, it infected the rest of the team like no other influence I have ever seen on a basketball court. Those teams just did not lose. Also, Lebron and the heat were often in a 1 game to none hole or a 2-1 hole, before taking control of a series. That's some **** that Jordan RARELY ever found himself in. Another example of how Chicago steam rolled much harder than Miami did.

Toss out his late entry back into the NBA in 95(?) season, and Jordan won 24 consecutive NBA playoff series. 20 freaking 4!

I know some stuff gets bandied about how Jordan's teams were more talented than Lebron's, but C'mon. The Heat went to 4 straight finals with a big 3, and a host of fairly quality veterans every year off the bench. They went 2-2 in the finals. Got outworked by a pretty good Mavs team, but they sure as hell weren't an all time great squad. Got destroyed last year by the Spurs and were a miracle shot away from being 1-3 in the finals. Jordan's finals teams compared to the heat LEFT NO DOUBT who the champion was.

Why do people dog LeBron constantly for a worse East but never point out the fact that MJ had much easier finals matchups because of that power balance?

 

[HFCS]

Ugh, I was a Knicks fan in high school when Jordan started winning titles.

I'd rather be a Knicks fan those years with Jordan shutting you out all the time than be a Knicks fan during the sad teams they've trotted out for the past 15 years.

 

[Omaha Cy]

Why do people dog LeBron constantly for a worse East but never point out the fact that MJ had much easier finals matchups because of that power balance?

OK? I really disagree with that statement.

The TrailBlazers and Sonics were IMO the least star studded/imposing teams the Bulls faced in those 6 finals. With that said, the Sonics still had the most wins in the league the years they faced Chicago (64-18)

Overall the East and West were pretty even, record-wise in most all of Jordan's 6 titles. Especially when you look at records among(top & bottom) the #1 and #8 seeds for both conference....and pretty close as well in terms of teams with 60+ wins, 50+ wins, etc and win totals for the bottom 6-8 seeds. I don't see the disparity you are referencing. By contrast recently, the West has 9 seeds that would be 6 seeds in the East, and one year they would have been like the 4th seed.

I think like 96-97 the East was considerably better, but that was really it. Overall, Jordan faced a Laker team that was aging, but did have a lot of their key components that had won a championship a few years earlier. Jordan faced a league MVP in Barkley with KJ when they played Phoenix, who might have had the best record in the NBA that year IIRC. They got HOF duo Stockton and Malone twice....including a season where Chicago and Utah finished tied for top record in the NBA.

Through all of that, the rockets teams pre-post titles were never able to navigate the West to get to play the Bulls...and that includes after they added Barkley to the mix with Drexler/Hakeem.

 

[CyJack13]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...clippers-make-risky-move-for-lance-stephenson Spot for Royce?

I like the trade for the Clippers, I'm still on the Lance bandwagon despite his terrible season last year. If you can get him to buy in, he can be a difference maker. He's played in a lot of big games already, has a reasonable contract and is still only 24.

 

[CyJack13]

OK? I really disagree with that statement.

The TrailBlazers and Sonics were IMO the least star studded/imposing teams the Bulls faced in those 6 finals. With that said, the Sonics still had the most wins in the league the years they faced Chicago (64-18)

Overall the East and West were pretty even, record-wise in most all of Jordan's 6 titles. Especially when you look at records among(top & bottom) the #1 and #8 seeds for both conference....and pretty close as well in terms of teams with 60+ wins, 50+ wins, etc and win totals for the bottom 6-8 seeds. I don't see the disparity you are referencing. By contrast recently, the West has 9 seeds that would be 6 seeds in the East, and one year they would have been like the 4th seed.

I think like 96-97 the East was considerably better, but that was really it. Overall, Jordan faced a Laker team that was aging, but did have a lot of their key components that had won a championship a few years earlier. Jordan faced a league MVP in Barkley with KJ when they played Phoenix, who might have had the best record in the NBA that year IIRC. They got HOF duo Stockton and Malone twice....including a season where Chicago and Utah finished tied for top record in the NBA.

Through all of that, the rockets teams pre-post titles were never able to navigate the West to get to play the Bulls...and that includes after they added Barkley to the mix with Drexler/Hakeem.

The Bulls got a Lakers team that was falling apart in '91, their second and third best player both were hurt during that Finals. Those Jazz teams were really overrated. Malone and Stockton didn't suddenly hit their peak at in their mid 30's, the rest of the West just fell off at that time. They had guys like Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, and Adam Keefe in their rotation. In '97 the Timberwolves made the playoffs as a six seed despite having a losing record. The Sonics were coached by George Karl, the fact they made it out of the first round should be seen as a major surprise. The Suns team with Barkely, KJ and Thunder Dan was legit.

I wouldn't use it as a knock on Jordan but his timing was impeccable to hit his prime between the Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics and before the Kobe-Shaq Lakers and Duncan's Spurs.

 

[BodeClone]

The Bulls got a Lakers team that was falling apart in '91, their second and third best player both were hurt during that Finals. Those Jazz teams were really overrated. Malone and Stockton didn't suddenly hit their peak at in their mid 30's, the rest of the West just fell off at that time. They had guys like Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, and Adam Keefe in their rotation. In '97 the Timberwolves made the playoffs as a six seed despite having a losing record. The Sonics were coached by George Karl, the fact they made it out of the first round should be seen as a major surprise. The Suns team with Barkely, KJ and Thunder Dan was legit.

I wouldn't use it as a knock on Jordan but his timing was impeccable to hit his prime between the Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics and before the Kobe-Shaq Lakers and Duncan's Spurs.

How great of a matchup would that have been!

 

[jbindm]

Anyone know the over/under for how many free throw attempts Lebron gets tonight? I don't know the gambling sites well enough to find it.

 

[CyJack13]

Anyone know the over/under for how many free throw attempts Lebron gets tonight? I don't know the gambling sites well enough to find it.

Bovada has a made free throws over/under line of 7.5 for him (-135 over), they don't have one for just attempts though.

 

[HFCS]

The Bulls got a Lakers team that was falling apart in '91, their second and third best player both were hurt during that Finals. Those Jazz teams were really overrated. Malone and Stockton didn't suddenly hit their peak at in their mid 30's, the rest of the West just fell off at that time. They had guys like Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, and Adam Keefe in their rotation. In '97 the Timberwolves made the playoffs as a six seed despite having a losing record. The Sonics were coached by George Karl, the fact they made it out of the first round should be seen as a major surprise. The Suns team with Barkely, KJ and Thunder Dan was legit.

I wouldn't use it as a knock on Jordan but his timing was impeccable to hit his prime between the Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics and before the Kobe-Shaq Lakers and Duncan's Spurs.

Malone winning MVP during and after those Finals years is at odds with this post. Malone those two years was the best player MJ faced in his 6 finals...great move getting Rodman in hindsight.

You are claiming Malone peaked, got worse, then won MVP over Michael Jordan, then made the Finals twice, then won MVP a second time in 99. If he did all that after his peak he'd be in GOAT discussion every time. Serious question, you have a lot of nba knowledge but did you really watch 80s and 90s playoffs and not think Malone was in his prime going to finals twice and winning MVP twice?

 

[HFCS]

OK? I really disagree with that statement.

The TrailBlazers and Sonics were IMO the least star studded/imposing teams the Bulls faced in those 6 finals. With that said, the Sonics still had the most wins in the league the years they faced Chicago (64-18)

Overall the East and West were pretty even, record-wise in most all of Jordan's 6 titles. Especially when you look at records among(top & bottom) the #1 and #8 seeds for both conference....and pretty close as well in terms of teams with 60+ wins, 50+ wins, etc and win totals for the bottom 6-8 seeds. I don't see the disparity you are referencing. By contrast recently, the West has 9 seeds that would be 6 seeds in the East, and one year they would have been like the 4th seed.

I think like 96-97 the East was considerably better, but that was really it. Overall, Jordan faced a Laker team that was aging, but did have a lot of their key components that had won a championship a few years earlier. Jordan faced a league MVP in Barkley with KJ when they played Phoenix, who might have had the best record in the NBA that year IIRC. They got HOF duo Stockton and Malone twice....including a season where Chicago and Utah finished tied for top record in the NBA.

Through all of that, the rockets teams pre-post titles were never able to navigate the West to get to play the Bulls...and that includes after they added Barkley to the mix with Drexler/Hakeem.

I often think about the two Rockets teams only breaking through twice and whether it was them having a short peak period or if the West was more crowded than perceived because of Jordan-mania. Hakeem was always good but for 2-3 years there he was soooooooo amazing to watch and really made every other big man look foolish, even Robinson the year Robinson won MVP and young Shaq looked silly trying to hang with him. I think he was always good, but man he really shined those two playoffs. I always wish I could have seen MJ Bulls against those teams.

That said, the Jazz teams were very very good with two legit top 20 all time players and a good supporting cast. Want a big 3? Malone-Stockton-Hornacek is one of the better ones ever. Hornacek is actually top 50 in a shocking amount of stats for his career and Malone/Stockton litter the record books. Anybody discounting the Jazz, Stockton, or Malone those years is probably trying to grind some silly axe against MJ's legacy. Also the Jazz's home court at that time was unlike anything else in the league that time, more like a crazy top college venue.

 

[Cyclonesince78]

I was on phog.net, and they were saying that Lebbron got a hair transplant, part of the reason why he ditched the headband. Can anyone confirm this critical NBA finals news?

 

[CyJack13]

Malone winning MVP during and after those Finals years is at odds with this post. Malone those two years was the best player MJ faced in his 6 finals...great move getting Rodman in hindsight.

You are claiming Malone peaked, got worse, then won MVP over Michael Jordan, then made the Finals twice, then won MVP a second time in 99. If he did all that after his peak he'd be in GOAT discussion every time. Serious question, you have a lot of nba knowledge but did you really watch 80s and 90s playoffs and not think Malone was in his prime going to finals twice and winning MVP twice?

Look at Malone's numbers for '99, he had a career low (up to that point) in FG% that year, he had his lowest scoring average since '87 that year, his lowest rebounding numbers since his rookie year. You think that was his peak? It was more like a lifetime achievement award in a weird strike shortened post-Jordan.

His numbers in around '95-'97 are no better than earlier in his careers, in 1990 he put up 31/11 on 56% shooting. Looking at offensive and defensive ratings, his best season was 1992-93 at age 29.

 

[HFCS]

Look at Malone's numbers for '99, he had a career low (up to that point) in FG% that year, he had his lowest scoring average since '87 that year, his lowest rebounding numbers since his rookie year. You think that was his peak? It was more like a lifetime achievement award in a weird strike shortened post-Jordan.

His numbers in around '95-'97 are no better than earlier in his careers, in 1990 he put up 31/11 on 56% shooting. Looking at offensive and defensive ratings, his best season was 1992-93 at age 29.

He was a beast in '97 and '98. His numbers weren't much different than the rest of his plateau. LeBron's numbers are down a little too but he's having his biggest effect on winning still lately.

I probably haven't ever disagreed with anything you've posted more than that Malone was past his prime in those 2 Finals. He was a load. I was wrong when I thought Jordan's entire career was a lower scoring era when it was really just a short period toward the end, I admitted it. You're just as wrong if you don't think Malone was a beast those years.

Malone down low those years was better than anybody in the NBA right now. Agree on the '99 award, but it is the height of silliness to say Malone wasn't a great player during those finals. Guy was one of the most physical presences in NBA history and in some ways was harder to keep out of his spot those years than when he was younger.

 

[CyJack13]

He was a beast in '97 and '98. His numbers weren't much different than the rest of his plateau. LeBron's numbers are down a little too but he's having his biggest effect on winning still lately.

I probably haven't ever disagreed with anything you've posted more than that Malone was past his prime in those 2 Finals. He was a load. I was wrong when I thought Jordan's entire career was a lower scoring era when it was really just a short period toward the end, I admitted it. You're just as wrong if you don't think Malone was a beast those years.

Malone down low those years was better than anybody in the NBA right now. Agree on the '99 award, but it is the height of silliness to say Malone wasn't a great player during those finals. Guy was one of the most physical presences in NBA history and in some ways was harder to keep out of his spot those years than when he was younger.

I didn't say Malone wasn't any good then, I simply said him and Stockton didn't suddenly get better at that time, the rest of the conference just got worse. And you're pretty much backing up my point with the bolded sentence.