At boiledleather.com there is a reordered mix between Feast and Dance. I may do that this next go around.
Game of Thrones (Re)read Thread
- Thread starter Gnomeborg
- Start date
alright, I'll get this thing started, I guess.
First chapter, in this case the prologue, is honestly one of my favorite chapters in the whole series. I've read it probably more than a dozen times, and I keep getting more out of it.
This time around, the thing that struck me was how much I actually liked Ser Waymar Royce.
don't crucify me.
I know he's an arrogant pr1ck, too young to be commanding but too rich and from too good a family to not be. And the fact that, despite the fact that everyone are supposed to be brothers in the Night's Watch (a fact that we haven't quite had drilled into our skulls yet....), those of nobel birth or Knighthood are given position when they had not earned it.
But something seemed off this time around. This time around, I'd just recently gone on a tiny rant about Jamie Lannister's horrible life (a version of which I shared in the show thread following the bath scene with Brienne in the show), and so it was fresh in my mind.
Jamie was 16 when he was Knighted, and it was kind of a big deal. A really big deal, actually. Loras was also 16 when he was anointed. Waymar Royce, those the ripe old age of 18, was Ser Waymar Royce, so he was a knight. But he'd been a sworn brother for six months already, which means he joined the Watch months before that. It is not unreasonable to assume nine months he's been at Castle Black between training and swearing in. That means, likely, that he was 17 when he was knighted. This is probably a whole lot more normal in the Seven Kingdoms, but probably still not the norm. If 17 is when most are knighted, the early anointing of Jamie and Loras wouldn't be that big of a deal.
And maybe they're not as big a deal as I think.
But even so, even if 17 or 18 is the norm, he's still a knight. And I don't think you can assume that it was standard practice to anoint every noble born fourth or fifth son that joins the Night's Watch. Additionally, he's 18 at the start of the book, and joined the watch when he was 17. Jon Snow was allowed to join at the age of 14, and was not considered young to be joining. In fact, the language we see in later chapters makes it seem like Jon could have joined earlier, Branden was trying to convince him of such for quite some time, afterall, but Ned had said no up to this point.
And Ser Waymar Royce has probably known for quite some time that his fate was to join the watch. He just didn't do it right away, and in the meantime, got himself a Ser attached to the front of his name.
Also, the Royce family are Bannermen to House Arryn, which means that he's not a Northman. He's descendant from the Andals. We know from later in the books that lords that aren't Northmen have very much given up the old tradition of sending third sons to the Wall, and it is rare indeed that one gets sent. So, the fact that he went, and his outfit indicates he wanted to go, speaks highly of him.
I think it's a mistake to immediately discount him as being green and stupid.
Sure he doubts the word of his Rangers, but to be fair, they are poorly educated peasants who have a tendency to be superstitious, and he was absolutely right about the state of the wall. Will said that they were dead, and Gared was rationalizing, talking about the extreme cold of winter, but Royce was right: the wall was weeping, so the cold couldn't be the cause.
And the reasoning of the weeping wall meaning that it couldn't be cold enough to kill a man so suddenly means that Royce wasn't an idiot.
He was only made to seem dumb because of the sudden presence of ice zombies and Ice Elemental Necromancers with ice swords. And let's be fair, not a lot of people factor ice zombies or necromancers into their reasoning process. He can't really be blamed for not making the leap to "Ice Zombies" as a possibility.
His job was to go into the woods, leading men that he was put in charge of (by the Old Bear and Branden Stark... just to remind), and discover what had happened to a group of Wildlings. the scouting report he got wasn't satisfactory (and let's be honest, it wasn't, it could have easily just been Will and Gared wanting to go home early). So, he pressed for more information.
Sure, he made the mistake of bringing a warhorse when a much more calm and smaller horse would have been needed, and bringing the long sword into the heavy trees was not smart (though, let's be fair here again: if he hadn't had the sword, his fight against the others would have been a lot shorter, but if I'm going to excuse him for not planning for ice zombies and necromancers, I can't turn around and praise him for then subsequently being prepared for ice zombies and necromancers, can I?). But let's look at his background. He's a Royce, meaning he's Yohn Royce's son (third, we find out later). As mentioned above, this means that he's from the Vale, and more specifically from Runestone, which is coastal. Not only are warhorses probably more common in the Vale, until you get into the mountains (where no horses are good), they were probably favorable. He learned to ride on the back of a warhorse, and if the garrons of the others were truly better, well, it was his first ranging, he'd figure it out soon enough. As for the sword, well, if you've never fought in dense forests, it'd be easy to underestimate how poorly having a long weapon could be. He could just assume that it's a sword, and trees are just trees, so he'll just cut through anything in his way. It's not an unreasonable assumption. Also, no one calls Mormont a ******* for bringing a broadsword with him on the Great Ranging, or John Snow for bringing a hand-and-a-half sword. So, while they are mistakes, and he would have been better off on a normal ranging had he listened to his more experienced Rangers, the mistakes are understandable when put into a context.
But for me, the thing that really got me thinking about this was what happened when the Others first showed up. There's plenty of moments in these books when people who thought they were bad men were finally faced with horrors they weren't prepared for, turned tail and ran, or turned to jelly. Later in this book, Jon freezes for a few moments when he sees an ice zombie for the first time. Crastor gives the walkers boy children, he's so scared. the Wildlings are fleeing south from these things. And Royce pulls his sword like "welp, nothing to do but to do it, I guess." He doesn't run, flinch, or even hesitate. Sure his voice cracks, but as he's scared out of his mind by this thing, he throws his cloak over his shoulders and gets ready to fight it, because he knows that's what he's gotta do. He fends off a White Walker for quite some time before he came too late with a parry, and even then, he tried to take one of the McCafferys with him after he realized there was no way he could win.
So, yeah, millionth time I read this chapter, I actually came away liking Waymar Royce, and thinking "man, if he'd only survived, he would have been a good man to have on Jon's side come the later books."
What'd y'all think of the prologue this time around?
First chapter, in this case the prologue, is honestly one of my favorite chapters in the whole series. I've read it probably more than a dozen times, and I keep getting more out of it.
This time around, the thing that struck me was how much I actually liked Ser Waymar Royce.
don't crucify me.
I know he's an arrogant pr1ck, too young to be commanding but too rich and from too good a family to not be. And the fact that, despite the fact that everyone are supposed to be brothers in the Night's Watch (a fact that we haven't quite had drilled into our skulls yet....), those of nobel birth or Knighthood are given position when they had not earned it.
But something seemed off this time around. This time around, I'd just recently gone on a tiny rant about Jamie Lannister's horrible life (a version of which I shared in the show thread following the bath scene with Brienne in the show), and so it was fresh in my mind.
Jamie was 16 when he was Knighted, and it was kind of a big deal. A really big deal, actually. Loras was also 16 when he was anointed. Waymar Royce, those the ripe old age of 18, was Ser Waymar Royce, so he was a knight. But he'd been a sworn brother for six months already, which means he joined the Watch months before that. It is not unreasonable to assume nine months he's been at Castle Black between training and swearing in. That means, likely, that he was 17 when he was knighted. This is probably a whole lot more normal in the Seven Kingdoms, but probably still not the norm. If 17 is when most are knighted, the early anointing of Jamie and Loras wouldn't be that big of a deal.
And maybe they're not as big a deal as I think.
But even so, even if 17 or 18 is the norm, he's still a knight. And I don't think you can assume that it was standard practice to anoint every noble born fourth or fifth son that joins the Night's Watch. Additionally, he's 18 at the start of the book, and joined the watch when he was 17. Jon Snow was allowed to join at the age of 14, and was not considered young to be joining. In fact, the language we see in later chapters makes it seem like Jon could have joined earlier, Branden was trying to convince him of such for quite some time, afterall, but Ned had said no up to this point.
And Ser Waymar Royce has probably known for quite some time that his fate was to join the watch. He just didn't do it right away, and in the meantime, got himself a Ser attached to the front of his name.
Also, the Royce family are Bannermen to House Arryn, which means that he's not a Northman. He's descendant from the Andals. We know from later in the books that lords that aren't Northmen have very much given up the old tradition of sending third sons to the Wall, and it is rare indeed that one gets sent. So, the fact that he went, and his outfit indicates he wanted to go, speaks highly of him.
I think it's a mistake to immediately discount him as being green and stupid.
Sure he doubts the word of his Rangers, but to be fair, they are poorly educated peasants who have a tendency to be superstitious, and he was absolutely right about the state of the wall. Will said that they were dead, and Gared was rationalizing, talking about the extreme cold of winter, but Royce was right: the wall was weeping, so the cold couldn't be the cause.
And the reasoning of the weeping wall meaning that it couldn't be cold enough to kill a man so suddenly means that Royce wasn't an idiot.
He was only made to seem dumb because of the sudden presence of ice zombies and Ice Elemental Necromancers with ice swords. And let's be fair, not a lot of people factor ice zombies or necromancers into their reasoning process. He can't really be blamed for not making the leap to "Ice Zombies" as a possibility.
His job was to go into the woods, leading men that he was put in charge of (by the Old Bear and Branden Stark... just to remind), and discover what had happened to a group of Wildlings. the scouting report he got wasn't satisfactory (and let's be honest, it wasn't, it could have easily just been Will and Gared wanting to go home early). So, he pressed for more information.
Sure, he made the mistake of bringing a warhorse when a much more calm and smaller horse would have been needed, and bringing the long sword into the heavy trees was not smart (though, let's be fair here again: if he hadn't had the sword, his fight against the others would have been a lot shorter, but if I'm going to excuse him for not planning for ice zombies and necromancers, I can't turn around and praise him for then subsequently being prepared for ice zombies and necromancers, can I?). But let's look at his background. He's a Royce, meaning he's Yohn Royce's son (third, we find out later). As mentioned above, this means that he's from the Vale, and more specifically from Runestone, which is coastal. Not only are warhorses probably more common in the Vale, until you get into the mountains (where no horses are good), they were probably favorable. He learned to ride on the back of a warhorse, and if the garrons of the others were truly better, well, it was his first ranging, he'd figure it out soon enough. As for the sword, well, if you've never fought in dense forests, it'd be easy to underestimate how poorly having a long weapon could be. He could just assume that it's a sword, and trees are just trees, so he'll just cut through anything in his way. It's not an unreasonable assumption. Also, no one calls Mormont a ******* for bringing a broadsword with him on the Great Ranging, or John Snow for bringing a hand-and-a-half sword. So, while they are mistakes, and he would have been better off on a normal ranging had he listened to his more experienced Rangers, the mistakes are understandable when put into a context.
But for me, the thing that really got me thinking about this was what happened when the Others first showed up. There's plenty of moments in these books when people who thought they were bad men were finally faced with horrors they weren't prepared for, turned tail and ran, or turned to jelly. Later in this book, Jon freezes for a few moments when he sees an ice zombie for the first time. Crastor gives the walkers boy children, he's so scared. the Wildlings are fleeing south from these things. And Royce pulls his sword like "welp, nothing to do but to do it, I guess." He doesn't run, flinch, or even hesitate. Sure his voice cracks, but as he's scared out of his mind by this thing, he throws his cloak over his shoulders and gets ready to fight it, because he knows that's what he's gotta do. He fends off a White Walker for quite some time before he came too late with a parry, and even then, he tried to take one of the McCafferys with him after he realized there was no way he could win.
So, yeah, millionth time I read this chapter, I actually came away liking Waymar Royce, and thinking "man, if he'd only survived, he would have been a good man to have on Jon's side come the later books."
What'd y'all think of the prologue this time around?
That is an excellent analysis of that chapter, and saw a lot of things I never considered. I'll admit that I always dismissed Royce as brave, but reckless. You picked up on great, minute details that I sort of skimmed over in my hurry to get to "the good chapters."
Thanks, Angie.
I'm not looking forward to trying to pull stuff like this out of Bran chapters. And we have two this week.
But it is analysis like this that gets me excited to reread the books over and over again. I now have this small fantasy in my head of eventual Lord Commander Waymar Royce. And judging by his father, he'd probably end up being a giant badass, too. Has the genes for some pretty awesome facial hair, too.
The first time I read the first book or two, I'd say, "Oh, a Bran chapter. Okay." Now it's, "****, a Bran chapter."
The worst part about Bran chapters is that they always have some super important advancement to the story buried deep under all the suck. It's like if the Brienne Guide to War Time Westeros happened to also have the identity of Jon Snow's mother just sorta slipped in there....
Yes, you nailed it. There's no way you can just skip them, even though you want to. And it's too bad, because I really do think he's going to be an incredibly integral character (they're clearly setting it up for that), so you should like those chapters. But they're just so very dry.
Gnomeborg - Your analysis of Waymar Royce is spot on. He comes off as arrogant, but he is only reacted to that situation the way any Southren Lord's son would. Had Benjen Stark, or Qhorin Halfhand been leading that ranging they may have reacted differently. However, they have experience North of the wall and have seen enough to know when something is wrong to exercise caution. It may not have mattered. Only Sam has survived an encounter with a white.
I am a little ways ahead of that, so I may be in response mode for a while, if that's okay.
Cyclonepride
Thought Police
I'd be up for it, but the only time that I find to read is in bed, and I may drop the Kindle on my face in 5 minutes or 30, so I'd probably get behind pretty quickly.
Cyclonepride
Thought Police
I've noticed it does that when linking books from Amazon. Haven't figured out a way to make it work.
Goddamn it Bret. I saw the thread bump and thought we had a date for WoW.
Sorry. That will be a new thread in all caps and the Randy Marsh splooge picture from the episode where they go to California looking for the Internet and they are in the camp and Randy watches pron.
Cyclonepride
Thought Police
It is a $200 Audiobook Set.
Edit:
Nice, so I could listen to 10 minutes and then sleep through the next 7 hours? I suppose I'd get done faster!
