F*** The Refs!

[VeloClone]

On the muffed punt, the official call was that ISU touched the punt. But you can’t say with any certainty that he actually did touch it.

On replay, there’s absolutely no way to tell if it touched him or not. I’m fine with that part of the call on the field standing, there was no clear and obvious evidence to overturn it - but also nobody can tell me flat-out “the returner touched the ball first” because nobody can tell that on the replay. He might have, he might not have, but there’s no proof, and that’s why the call stood.

Picking up the flag for fair-catch interference was extremely dicey, though.

I know returning kicks is very difficult, but that returner should have gotten away from the Iowa cover guy as soon as he saw him barreling at him. (And don’t get me started on the later play with the kickoff return guy signaling fair catch when he wasn’t even the guy fielding the kick. That was really boneheaded.)

That's not the way it works. As soon as you signal for a fair catch you shouldn't have to worry about any defender so you concentrate on the ball and getting to the spot to make the fair catch. It is up to the coverage player to not interfere with you, not you to get away from him.

As far as catch interference, there is no way you can pick up the flag saying he was blocked into the returner when the blocker is between you and the returner AND you shed the block. Blocking into the returner is for when the blocker is pushing you into the returner not when he is keeping you away. He was trying to push the blocker into his own returner (like iowa players are coached to do) and when the blocker bailed out to avoid that he couldn't stop his momentum. That is NOT being blocked into the returner. This was a no brainer fair catch interference and should have never been called a muffed punt. He had the ability to avoid the contact by letting up and keeping clear of the return man when the return man signaled fair catch way before the contact.

 

[VeloClone]

Finally, an explanation. I wish the broadcast could have bothered to inform us.

That would require the announcers to understand the rules. To be fair I was befuddled by this one as well, but so many times I am screaming at the TV because the announcers are stating misinterpretation of the rules as fact - and I'm no genius. Dudes, it is your job. Do a little off season research and know the rules.

 

[VeloClone]

When did this change? Saturdays is inside the outside edge, Sundays is entirely inside the inside edge when going over uprights. So the ball can go over the upright and still be good on Saturdays.

This hasn't changed. Iowa State got beat by Alabama in the Independence Bowl when Tony Yelk's FG attempt sailed over the upright. Iowa State was able to beat #2 Okie St in overtime after a Cowboy FG attempt sailed over the upright as time was winding down in regulation. College FG attempts have had to be completely inside the upright for years.

 

[herbicide]

Was that the long pass to Overby where his arm was being held and he couldn’t haul in the perfect throw by Rocco with one hand? That was such a glaring PI that went uncalled, but I didn’t remember how that drive turned out.

No, this one the db grabbed and held while the ball was in the air. No play on the ball, it landed -5-10 yards in front of the (held) receiver.

 

[VeloClone]

sorry if someone already made this point, but when is football going to have a chip in the football? That should eliminate the human error on ball spotting.

Will it?

• How will chip account for orientation of the ball so forward most part of ball is recorded? It could be either point or any side of the ball. It could be anywhere on the skin of the football.
• How will chip know where ball was when knee is down or toe touches out of bounds or when receiver secures ball when already down? There is more to it than furthest N/S point the ball travels.

It is more complex then just put a chip in the ball. It may help but isn't going to eliminate the human error. Not to mention the forces acting on those chips so they will be failing in balls all the time.

 

[VeloClone]

I always laugh when they bring out the chains. Like my dudes you are not placing the ball with inch level precision.

Not to mention the way centers/snappers are allowed to move the ball when first addressing. Any "inches to go" play starts with the line to gain already passed because centers are allowed to set their feet and then slide the ball forward before they are even set to start the play. I got a flag in junior high just for tipping the ball up partially on point before the snap. Now they regularly move the ball forward half the length of the football.

 

[VeloClone]

I've watched the replay 100 times. What I see is that as the ball goes past his arm, X's hand moves and maybe you could say you see muscle/skin on his forearm "ripple". The thing I disagree about is that those things are clear evidence of the ball touching him. If you look at the totality of the movement you see that he was trying to grasp the ball in a hugging motion. What we see could be just him in the process of beginning that motion. I see no evidence of the ball changing spin or direction.

As someone else said, when you have to go to Zapruder level film analysis, you're well outside any clear evidence. Since the refs let it play out and Iowa recovered, you have to leave it called that way.

Annnnnd, all of that should be moot, because it was clearly catch interference. Our guy blocking did exactly as he should have and released his block yards before they got to the landing point of the punt. How the picked up the flag is the biggest mystery to me. The head ref announced that without even huddling up with the other refs.

The refs at the point of the play were huddling and talking and the white hat can be seen conversing with them on his headset as he came down the field.

 

[CycloneDaddy]

Will it?

• How will chip account for orientation of the ball so forward most part of ball is recorded? It could be either point or any side of the ball. It could be anywhere on the skin of the football.
• How will chip know where ball was when knee is down or toe touches out of bounds or when receiver secures ball when already down? There is more to it than furthest N/S point the ball travels.

It is more complex then just put a chip in the ball. It may help but isn't going to eliminate the human error. Not to mention the forces acting on those chips so they will be failing in balls all the time.

NFL Selects Sony’s Hawk-Eye Innovations to Revolutionize Line-to-Gain Measurements | NFL Football Operations

operations.nfl.com

 

[VeloClone]

FWIW it did look like it grazed X’s hand/wrist when they slowed it frame by frame. It was likely enough to make it “inconclusive”. I’m not a fan of 3 minute forensics on these reviews. Take a look and make a call.

That said, he was clearly interfered with by the Iowa player so it should’ve been a non issue.

It was over 3 1/2 minutes from announcing the review to announcing the decision so at least 3 1/2 under the hood. Way too long...

 

[madguy30]

It was over 3 1/2 minutes from announcing the review to announcing the decision so at least 3 1/2 under the hood. Way too long...

The only benefit was it gave ISU defenders a chance to rest a bit and maybe it helped in holding Iowa to the FG.

 

[bluestarcyclone]

Will it?

• How will chip account for orientation of the ball so forward most part of ball is recorded? It could be either point or any side of the ball. It could be anywhere on the skin of the football.
• How will chip know where ball was when knee is down or toe touches out of bounds or when receiver secures ball when already down? There is more to it than furthest N/S point the ball travels.

It is more complex then just put a chip in the ball. It may help but isn't going to eliminate the human error. Not to mention the forces acting on those chips so they will be failing in balls all the time.

For the second question, if your system has everything synced up with the cameras available you should be able to grab the time stamp from when the knee or toe touched and then grab the position data from the ball

 

[VeloClone]

NFL Selects Sony’s Hawk-Eye Innovations to Revolutionize Line-to-Gain Measurements | NFL Football Operations

operations.nfl.com

I'm confused, how does a system that does optical measurement from the location of the placed ball to the line to gain address "putting a chip in the ball to eliminate human error in placing the ball"? That technology just eliminates the need to walk the chains out on to the field for a measurement. Humans are still placing the ball after the previous play.

 

[VeloClone]

For the second question, if your system has everything synced up with the cameras available you should be able to grab the time stamp from when the knee or toe touched and then grab the position data from the ball

No doubt there is a solution, they can address the first problem with a chip in either point of the football and creating a virtual bit map of the football so it can "see" the whole football virtually at any moment based on those two points. But it is going to be a lot more than just putting a chip in the ball. And when the tech is new it is going to take a lot longer than human judgement to place the ball. How much stomach for that further delay on every play will there be?

 

[theshadow]

And when the tech is new it is going to take a lot longer than human judgement to place the ball. How much stomach for that further delay on every play will there be?

Most of the preseason games I saw that used the virtual 1st down review took as long or longer than if they had just trotted the chains out there.

 

[CycloneDaddy]

Most of the preseason games I saw that used the virtual 1st down review took as long or longer than if they had just trotted the chains out there.

“The full operational process takes around 30 seconds, saving up to 40 seconds from a measurement with the chains.”

 

[cayin]

Will it?

• How will chip account for orientation of the ball so forward most part of ball is recorded? It could be either point or any side of the ball. It could be anywhere on the skin of the football.
• How will chip know where ball was when knee is down or toe touches out of bounds or when receiver secures ball when already down? There is more to it than furthest N/S point the ball travels.

It is more complex then just put a chip in the ball. It may help but isn't going to eliminate the human error. Not to mention the forces acting on those chips so they will be failing in balls all the time.

good points that I didn't think about. I just thought the dimensions of the football would be programmed into it and it would sink with the censors on the sideline marker chains. But, as you said that can't account for knees, toes, etc..

 

[theshadow]

“The full operational process takes around 30 seconds, saving up to 40 seconds from a measurement with the chains.”

And yet, it clearly didn't.

They'll have to shore that up.

 

[CycloneDaddy]

And yet, it clearly didn't.

They'll have to shore that up.

It felt pretty fast yesterday the 1 time I saw it used. Like most things it will get quicker with practice.

 

[3TrueFans]

How often do they even measure anymore? Seems like not very often.

 

[HFCS]

No doubt there is a solution, they can address the first problem with a chip in either point of the football and creating a virtual bit map of the football so it can "see" the whole football virtually at any moment based on those two points. But it is going to be a lot more than just putting a chip in the ball. And when the tech is new it is going to take a lot longer than human judgement to place the ball. How much stomach for that further delay on every play will there be?

I'm a Serie A fan (Italian soccer).

The lowliest games like Lecce vs Empoli have VAR tech that is like Star Trek compared to even NFL. We're talking maybe 10-15k fans in the seats, it'd be more comparable to an FCS or low G5 game than an ISU game.

I don't doubt it would take a little time, but it's only this far behind because the sport has been fine living with bad officiating results. The money is EASILY there and the tech has been there a while.