Did Hitler Live Past WW2

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
25,027
37,127
113
Waukee
when it comes to the Nazis, anything is possible. They were so organized, so meticulous in plans and planning....

I remember this story, not high level, but still - never know who is your neighbor: http://articles.latimes.com/1997-01-01/news/mn-14539_1_concentration-camp-guard

Their level of meticulousness and organization -- completely not actually the doing of the professionals in the old Prussian aristocracy/bureaucracy and the German Army that actually ran the country -- was absolutely why they won the war, right? I mean, right?

Come on. The Nazis were blind ideologues led by an idiot man-child who thought invading Russia was like playing Cowboys and Indians...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-cowboy-novels-that-inspired-hitler

They got as far as they did in the 1930s and 1940s despite the Nazis, not because of them. The Germans were much closer to winning the Great War than they were the World War, and the more professional and less political nature of their regime and military in the first conflict compared to the second conflict had a lot to do with that fact.

Planning for a new world capital when you are losing the Battle of Stalingrad is not good planning.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: aobie

VeloClone

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2010
45,766
35,130
113
Brooklyn Park, MN
Their level of meticulousness and organization -- completely not actually the doing of the professionals in the old Prussian aristocracy/bureaucracy and the German Army that actually ran the country -- was absolutely why they won the war, right? I mean, right?

Come on. The Nazis were blind ideologues led by an idiot man-child who thought invading Russia was like playing Cowboys and Indians...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-cowboy-novels-that-inspired-hitler

They got as far as they did in the 1930s and 1940s despite the Nazis, not because of them. The Germans were much closer to winning the Great War than they were the World War, and the more professional and less political nature of their regime and military in the first conflict compared to the second conflict had a lot to do with that fact.

Planning for a new world capital when you are losing the Battle of Stalingrad is not good planning.
This is an appallingly simplistic view of the war. I don't think a lot of people realize how close the Allies were to collapsing before the ill-fated (for the Axis) attack on America's assets in the Pacific. There is too much separating of "Nazis" and "Germans". They were all in it together (whether all of them wanted to be or not) and all of the people that history wants to drop into neat little baskets had their strengths and their weaknesses.

It is just such a failure to understand history that doomed Germany in the 1940's.
 

Cyclonepride

Thought Police
Staff member
Apr 11, 2006
96,787
57,959
113
53
A pineapple under the sea
www.oldschoolradical.com
History Channel - the station that brought you Ancient Aliens, MonsterQuest, Nostradamus Effect, Brad Meltzer's Decoded and Jurassic Fight Club.

There is no more disappointing channel around. Just pure, informational history is a boundless subject and I'd watch consistently if they'd just stick to that.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: besserheimerphat

Doc

This is it Morty
Aug 6, 2006
37,437
21,963
113
Denver
There is no more disappointing channel around. Just pure, informational history is a boundless subject and I'd watch consistently if they'd just stick to that.

giphy.gif
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Cyclonepride

clonehenge

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2006
1,619
1,584
113
History Channel - the station that brought you Ancient Aliens, MonsterQuest, Nostradamus Effect, Brad Meltzer's Decoded and Jurassic Fight Club.

Dude, what was wrong with Brad Meltzer's Decoded?!

I think that's a case of, which of these doesn't belong with the others?
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
25,027
37,127
113
Waukee
This is an appallingly simplistic view of the war. I don't think a lot of people realize how close the Allies were to collapsing before the ill-fated (for the Axis) attack on America's assets in the Pacific. There is too much separating of "Nazis" and "Germans". They were all in it together (whether all of them wanted to be or not) and all of the people that history wants to drop into neat little baskets had their strengths and their weaknesses.

It is just such a failure to understand history that doomed Germany in the 1940's.

The Axis, insomuch as it was a functional alliance, was a rather loose one.

Nothing about it really compelled Hitler to declare war on the U.S. once the Japanese began their war in East Asia. Hitler did it for his own opportunistic reasons.

The main ones included...

(1.) The U.S. was essentially fighting an undeclared naval war against the Germans with the British in the North Atlantic. The Kriegsmarine was absolutely begging Hitler to turn them loose against the U.S. Navy and shipping assets, claiming they could possibly starve the British out of the war (which the Germans were much closer to doing in the 1910s) or, at least, affect the flow of Lend-Lease supplies to the Soviets to affect the strategic and supply situation on the Eastern Front or even starve the Soviets out, so much as Stalin cared.

They were not entirely wrong, by the way. Allied shipping loses were incredible for the first year or two of the Battle of the Atlantic, and American/British strategic options in Europe were very limited by their lack of shipping from North America to back it up. It took three years for there to be an Overlord because it took three years to win the Battle of the Atlantic.

(2.) Hitler had some appreciation for the industrial might of the U.S. and the depth of its manpower, but he considered it a "mongrel nation" controlled by Jews that would take far too long to spool into a wartime footing to really matter before he knocked the Soviets out of the war. This was by far his largest miscalculation in this situation. Turning the U-Boats loose made some sense as a strategic gamble. This was just pure Nazi ideology and German nationalism blinding him where a more somber observer would have realized the problem.

(3.) And least importantly, he essentially promised the Japanese he would, and he thought these little "yellow men" could distract the Americans somewhat.

Yes, the low point for the Allies was right before the American entry into the war, but how exactly do the Germans win at that point? They still would have been unable to take Moscow by the end of 1941, and I doubt 1942 goes much better for them. It might still end in Stalingrad. They still lose the Battle of El Alamein and fall back across Libya. The loss of the distraction from the American landings in North Africa is made up for unfettered American shipping to the British Isles and even up to the White Sea ports to supply the Soviets. That trade is a wash.

How exactly do the Germans win?

I can give you a half-dozen times they almost won the first time, but zero the second.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: khardbored and Doc

thatguy

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2009
4,384
1,205
113
40
DENVER
If Martin Boremann can get out, Hitler can get out. There is no hard evidence of Hitler escaping, but there is hard evidence of high level Nazi's in Argentina and infrastructure and plans for the 4th Reich in South America.
 

VeloClone

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2010
45,766
35,130
113
Brooklyn Park, MN
The Axis, insomuch as it was a functional alliance, was a rather loose one.

Nothing about it really compelled Hitler to declare war on the U.S. once the Japanese began their war in East Asia. Hitler did it for his own opportunistic reasons.

The main ones included...

(1.) The U.S. was essentially fighting an undeclared naval war against the Germans with the British in the North Atlantic. The Kriegsmarine was absolutely begging Hitler to turn them loose against the U.S. Navy and shipping assets, claiming they could possibly starve the British out of the war (which the Germans were much closer to doing in the 1910s) or, at least, affect the flow of Lend-Lease supplies to the Soviets to affect the strategic and supply situation on the Eastern Front or even starve the Soviets out, so much as Stalin cared.

They were not entirely wrong, by the way. Allied shipping loses were incredible for the first year or two of the Battle of the Atlantic, and American/British strategic options in Europe were very limited by their lack of shipping from North America to back it up. It took three years for there to be an Overlord because it took three years to win the Battle of the Atlantic.

(2.) Hitler had some appreciation for the industrial might of the U.S. and the depth of its manpower, but he considered it a "mongrel nation" controlled by Jews that would take far too long to spool into a wartime footing to really matter before he knocked the Soviets out of the war. This was by far his largest miscalculation in this situation. Turning the U-Boats loose made some sense as a strategic gamble. This was just pure Nazi ideology and German nationalism blinding him where a more somber observer would have realized the problem.

(3.) And least importantly, he essentially promised the Japanese he would, and he thought these little "yellow men" could distract the Americans somewhat.

Yes, the low point for the Allies was right before the American entry into the war, but how exactly do the Germans win at that point? They still would have been unable to take Moscow by the end of 1941, and I doubt 1942 goes much better for them. It might still end in Stalingrad. They still lose the Battle of El Alamein and fall back across Libya. The loss of the distraction from the American landings in North Africa is made up for unfettered American shipping to the British Isles and even up to the White Sea ports to supply the Soviets. That trade is a wash.

How exactly do the Germans win?

I can give you a half-dozen times they almost won the first time, but zero the second.
Once the floodgates were opened and the American honor was damaged there was really no chance they were just going to enter the war in the Pacific. Roosevelt hadn't even tried to put a fig leaf over his desires to help out the Allies in the war. The attacks in December of '41 gave him everything he needed to enter full scale rather than just being the armorer of the west.

The Germans were in a good position several times for favorable terms in a peace settlement. The British didn't have much stomach for continuing on alone and many wanted to make a deal but luckily the one at 10 Downing would have none of it. To be successful you don't have to have unconditional surrender. When you can make a negotiated peace with better terms than you started under that is a victory.
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
25,027
37,127
113
Waukee
Once the floodgates were opened and the American honor was damaged there was really no chance they were just going to enter the war in the Pacific. Roosevelt hadn't even tried to put a fig leaf over his desires to help out the Allies in the war. The attacks in December of '41 gave him everything he needed to enter full scale rather than just being the armorer of the west.

The Germans were in a good position several times for favorable terms in a peace settlement. The British didn't have much stomach for continuing on alone and many wanted to make a deal but luckily the one at 10 Downing would have none of it. To be successful you don't have to have unconditional surrender. When you can make a negotiated peace with better terms than you started under that is a victory.

The U.S. was not at war with Germany until Germany declared war on the U.S., and mostly, as described, because Hitler wanted to go after American shipping.

Roosevelt and pals had a heck of a time actually orienting the country to fight under the Europe First policy considering the war started with Pearl Harbor and a burning desire for revenge against the Japanese motivated most Americans. The prominence of white German-Americans relative to the dislike of the Japanese and their Yellow Peril -- yep, even liberal people back then were super racist by modern standards -- did not help with that, either.

We threw Japanese-Americans into camps, not Germans or Italians.

His admirals told him they could win the war if they could choke off Lend-Lease. He thought now, with the U.S. beginning to arm and somewhat distracted over Japan and with Britain and the Soviets both in tough spots in late 1941, no time like the present, and that little extra "push" could win him the war on the Eastern Front and starve out Britain, so American industrial power would arrive too little and too late to affect the outcome of the real war to the East.

You are right that, in the long-term, the German declaration of war on the U.S. doomed them, but (1.) in the short-term, with the huge Allied shipping losses, it actually made the situation harder on the British and Soviets because it reduced their import of American food and equipment at a critical time that winter and (2.) the Soviets likely win the long war of attrition on the Eastern Front anyways, which means, if no Overlord, Soviet tanks probably still make it back to Berlin at some point, and then just keep on rolling to the Pyrenees.

The fact the Germans were in a "favorable position for a peace treaty" does not help them. Churchill and Stalin were in charge and not having any of it. Roosevelt felt the same. Can you describe a situation where Britain has to quit the war, likely after Churchill is ousted as PM, or Stalin is somehow removed from the equation and/or the Soviet Union is so utterly defeated it becomes something of a meaningless rump state confined to Siberia?

They were never on the cusp like the Germans were before the First Battle of the Marne/reaching Paris, in 1917 with unrestricted submarine warfare, during the mutiny of the French Army after the Nivelle offensive, or during the Ludendorff offensive of 1918. It was not clear who was going to win the Great War until its final months. WWII was basically over by November 1942.
 
Last edited:

cyputz

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2006
1,647
1,177
113
71
Get over it - dead and gone - however with the money it brings in today- screw it he is gone - thank goodness
 

UnCytely

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
Sep 24, 2017
3,294
3,465
113
Council Bluffs, Iowa
He was in Berlin, surrounded by the Red Army, and drugged out of his mind. I’d be surprised if he made it out in one piece.

This. He was very unhealthy by the end of the war. If, by some miracle, NAZI Germany had somehow survived the war, I don't see Hitler surviving to 1950.
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
25,027
37,127
113
Waukee
This. He was very unhealthy by the end of the war. If, by some miracle, NAZI Germany had somehow survived the war, I don't see Hitler surviving to 1950.

There is speculation he was in a late stage of either Parkinson's or a late stage of syphilis. Simply being a crazy meth addict was also a possibility.

Even if he did make it to Argentina, he would not have lasted long.
 

herbicide

Well-Known Member
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Mar 23, 2006
10,848
2,297
113
Ankeny, IA
How exactly do the Germans win?

I can give you a half-dozen times they almost won the first time, but zero the second.

I've got one.. Had Germany not let the B.E.F. escape at Dunkirk, it is likely UK would have signed a peace treaty; Despite the propaganda in Germany Hitler did not want a war with England. He sued for peace up till the very end.

All the dominoes would have fallen in a quite different manner. For instance, Hitler's war with the USSR would have at least been delayed; it may have not ever have actually transpired (although very unlikely). England's defiance in a strange way forced Germany's hand to go to war with USSR before Germany was prepared to do so. Yet they still came very close to capturing Moscow.

Had the UK capitulated in 1940, even with Pearl Harbor Hitler may not had the reason to declare war on the US; With Germany and UK at "peace" there would be no lingering conflict between the US and Germany. Remember in 1940 and even 1941 popular US public opinion was still to stay out of the war.

One can easily make the argument that Dunkirk was the single most important event in the whole war.

Although improbable due to economics and logistics, there are probable scenarios that the nazi Germany could have won that war.
 

Cyched

CF Influencer
May 8, 2009
30,934
51,641
113
Denver, CO
I've got one.. Had Germany not let the B.E.F. escape at Dunkirk, it is likely UK would have signed a peace treaty; Despite the propaganda in Germany Hitler did not want a war with England. He sued for peace up till the very end.

All the dominoes would have fallen in a quite different manner. For instance, Hitler's war with the USSR would have at least been delayed; it may have not ever have actually transpired (although very unlikely). England's defiance in a strange way forced Germany's hand to go to war with USSR before Germany was prepared to do so. Yet they still came very close to capturing Moscow.

Had the UK capitulated in 1940, even with Pearl Harbor Hitler may not had the reason to declare war on the US; With Germany and UK at "peace" there would be no lingering conflict between the US and Germany. Remember in 1940 and even 1941 popular US public opinion was still to stay out of the war.

One can easily make the argument that Dunkirk was the single most important event in the whole war.

Although improbable due to economics and logistics, there are probable scenarios that the nazi Germany could have won that war.

Agree on Dunkirk. Can also throw in the fact that Britain didn't fold during the Blitz.

Hitler's decision to invade the Soviet Union and open up a second front was key in his demise as well.