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Demarion Watson

According to Torvick, Watson is the 4th most valuable player (in conference play). However, this is more of an offensive metric than measuring impact on defense (Heise)

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Stat explained here:

"basic idea is to estimate how many more points per game a player creates than a hypothetical "replacement player" would. The basic formula for PORPAG is:

(OffRtg – 88) * %Poss * Min% *65
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madguy30 said:
You think he'd be better if he played more two months ago? He's been essentially the same player the whole time and the main improvements on skills tend to take place during the off season.

Maybe you should go back to not watching the games or something. ISU heading for another NCAA tourney and hopefully a good seed seems to put you on the struggle bus.

If Watson knows where he stands on this (all indications are he does) I'm not sure why you keep struggling with it.
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I'm not struggling with anything, I just think it's funny some you still think players don't develop by getting game minutes and being on the floor with better players to gain cohesion.

I'm having alot of fun this season, aren't you the one constantly telling us all the different ways we will likely lose every game?

What does your advanced research on Arizona St tell us will go wrong if lose Saturday?
 
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MJ271 said:
I love Watson and have been one of his biggest proponents/defenders. But I think that Heise still offers more overall. On defense and rebounding, both are great, but Heise is more of an active defender, while Watson's length and athleticism make up for sometimes slow reactions. On offense, Heise can still do more with the ball in his hands--we've seen some nice wraparound or pocket passes from him to posts on drives, for instance. And despite Watson making a three last night, I think their respective roles on offense when in show that practice would indicate that Heise is still a better offensive player and more trusted as a shooter.

It seems like a bit of an overreaction to say that at least Watson has value on offense when Heise also put up 9 points with a couple of assists last night.
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I like Lipsey and think he is a better player than Jackson so I think TJ should give as many of Dishon's minutes to Tamin as possible.

Sounds kind of silly, doesn't it, because they don't play the same position.
 
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flycy said:
Usually Heise rebounds well, his defense is good he stays in front of opponents well. Overall, his defense is way overestimated by some fans. I don't see how you say he brings more to the team than Watson. Even if he were draining 3s I would say Watson and him would both be about equally valuable but very different when out there. Watson at least currently has value on offense.
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No, Heise's defense is not "way overestimated" by the fans. He's a fantastic defender, both on-ball and help-side.

To reiterate, they don't play the same position, and no - Watson does not bring "more to the team" than Heise. That is just silly. And to be clear yet again, that is not a knock on Watson.
 
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VeloClone said:
I like Lipsey and think he is a better player than Jackson so I think TJ should give as many of Dishon's minutes to Tamin as possible.

Sounds kind of silly, doesn't it, because they don't play the same position.
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Yes, I do partly agree with you that it's a silly conversation. I'm just responding to someone else about it.

That being said, though, according to cbbanalytics.com, the combo of Lipsey/Gilbert/Jones/Heise (Heise playing the 4) has played 70 minutes this season. That works out to about 4 minutes a game, which is small but not nothing. I think keeping the minutes of Lipsey, Gilbert, and Jones down might be more of a limiting factor to Heise playing the 4 compared to Otz not being okay with playing him there.
 
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MJ271 said:
Yes, I do partly agree with you that it's a silly conversation. I'm just responding to someone else about it.

That being said, though, according to cbbanalytics.com, the combo of Lipsey/Gilbert/Jones/Heise (Heise playing the 4) has played 70 minutes this season. That works out to about 4 minutes a game, which is small but not nothing. I think keeping the minutes of Lipsey, Gilbert, and Jones down might be more of a limiting factor to Heise playing the 4 compared to Otz not being okay with playing him there.
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Sorry, not just directed at you, but at the line of reasoning. We need all hands in order to be (borrowing from Campbell) multiple. Different opponents are going to present different challenges or more appropriately present different opportunities and having a pool of capable players allows you to adjust your attack to better exploit the other team's weaknesses.
 
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bozclone said:
Right now Watson and Heise aren't competing for the same minutes. Heise is spelling a guard and basicly playing the 3 spot. Watson is spelling Jefferson unless they move Jefferson to the 5 and play them together. So Watson is playing the 4 spot when he is on the floor. Heise has shown the ability to play the 4 spot some, but I don't see Watson playing the 3 spot. Watson's lack of minutes earlier were likely because TJ has a set number of guys he likes in the rotation and Watson is pretty limited into playing a backup 4. Heise offers more position flexibility. Ultimately, you want Jefferson on the court as much as possible so that impacts Watson.
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Great post. I think this is what gets lost on many. The fans love Watson, but his minutes would come from Jefferson, not Heise. And Jefferson has been amazing this year. I think Watson will get more minutes situationally to keep fresh legs on the court as the season goes on, but he's a bit of a tweener in TJ's offensive and defensive schemes. And, unfortunately, his disruptive style of play sometimes leads to a high number of fouls while he's out there.

I love that we can bring a guy like Watson off the bench when teams get comfortable with a lineup. It's like TJ is saying "We're kicking your ass with our normal lineup. Now, I'm going to bring in our most athletic guy to give you something else to think about."

NoCreativity said:
I'm not struggling with anything, I just think it's funny some you still think players don't develop by getting game minutes and being on the floor with better players to gain cohesion.

I'm having alot of fun this season, aren't you the one constantly telling us all the different ways we will likely lose every game?

What does your advanced research on Arizona St tell us will go wrong if lose Saturday?
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Is anyone arguing against the bolded point? I haven't really seen it.
 
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NoCreativity said:
I'm not struggling with anything, I just think it's funny some you still think players don't develop by getting game minutes and being on the floor with better players to gain cohesion.

I'm having alot of fun this season, aren't you the one constantly telling us all the different ways we will likely lose every game?

What does your advanced research on Arizona St tell us will go wrong if lose Saturday?
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You've watched the season enough to enjoy it? Nice.

Can you please cite where I typed the words 'players don't develop by getting game minutes and being on the floor with better players to gain cohesion?'. Cite the exact quote, please.

The question is this (read twice if you need to): does playing in November just to play, make someone better two months from then? That's it, that's the question. So far, it looks like the answer is 'No'.

No, I'm not the one that's coming up with ways to lose games. You never cited that either.

As a matter of fact, somewhere along the lines you said you had WV pegged as a loss. So...you didn't think ISU could win a game? Why?

There's no advanced research for Saturday. I heard ASU has length out front. That's tends to be a potential problem for ISU since they don't have that in their back court. But I'm sure (if you watch it) if they lose you'll be right back here whining about someone not playing in November as the reason.
 
cycloner29 said:
Whatever “Miss Manners”. Says the guy throwing out vulgar language. Talk about obnoxious behavior!!:rolleyes:
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I am not worried about manners or I would have phrased my post differently. I just see a personal attack related to an innocuous post. My post called that out. You can take offense if you want. I hope you see my intent, but that is up to you.
 
VeloClone said:
I like Lipsey and think he is a better player than Jackson so I think TJ should give as many of Dishon's minutes to Tamin as possible.

Sounds kind of silly, doesn't it, because they don't play the same position.
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And Cujo's a better three point shooter than Tamin, so he should play for Tamin in Jackson's place.

It would have been nice if the staff would have worked on this during a November 14th game. How else would they know if it will work or not?

/s
 
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madguy30 said:
The question is this (read twice if you need to): does playing in November just to play, make someone better two months from then? That's it, that's the question. So far, it looks like the answer is 'No'.
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You can't substantiate this either way and neither can I so it's pointless to argue. Let people have their opinions, if you don't agree with it move on.

I had West Virginia as a loss simply becuase that place has been a horror show for a decade now and we are likely to lose at least 4-5 conference games. That seemed like a logical choice, along with at Kansas, Arizona, and Houston.

Me saying I expected them lose that 1 game is a far cry from what you do. You are constantly worried about us losing every game for years now.
 
NoCreativity said:
You can't substantiate this either way and neither can I so it's pointless to argue. Let people have their opinions, if you don't agree with it move on.

I had West Virginia as a loss simply becuase that place has been a horror show for a decade now and we are likely to lose at least 4-5 conference games. That seemed like a logical choice, along with at Kansas, Arizona, and Houston.

Me saying I expected them lose that 1 game is a far cry from what you do. You are constantly worried about us losing every game for years now.
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Please cite where I've said this. Be specific. Specifically state where what I've written for every game that indicates I think ISU lose.
 
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