Darian DeVries

[CycloneErik]

Good morning Erik,

I mentioned it in another thread yesterday, and I don't know how old you are, but I'm 46 and about 35 years ago locked in to college basketball as my favorite sport to watch. I've been religiously watching the NCAA tournament ever since then, even if it doesn't involve either ISU or UNI. Yes, I'm quite aware and have been since I watched Johnny Orr's team beat #2 Michigan up in Minneapolis back in 1986 that upsets do happen in March, but hey, thanks for walking me through that.

And I do feel there is quite the double standard among Cyclone fans who are not willing to extend the "these games happen" mindset of a courtesy to CSP that they do with CFH, even though that '19 team wasn't as good as the '15 team and the '19 OSU team was a h*ll of a lot better than the '15 UAB team. I do think the comparison of how the collective fan base has reacted to these two different losses from two different coaches is worth mentioning.

And yes....I know about the goodwill that CFH had accrued. Again though, CSP has the same number of Big 12 tournament titles that CFH has, and he also has the same number of Sweet 16 berths. Yes, I know, I know, he got his S 16 with Fred's players, and he had to go through the ignominy of beating a couple of double-digit seeds to do it. I guess I forgot that we have oh so many Sweet 16 teams in school history (all of 5 going back to the 1980's) that the fan base should be entitled to decide which ones of those are REALLY worth celebrating.

Erik, you really used to be one of my favorite posters on here. I used to really enjoy interacting with you, and I looked forward to reading what you had to write on a variety of subjects. FWIW, I like to think that we would get along just fine if we ever met in person, and I still do enjoy and agree with a lot of what you write, particularly when it comes to history and politics, and even still basketball occasionally. But seriously, you seem to have developed a personal grudge towards those posters who don't match your level of vitriol towards CSP. If I'm misinterpreting that please tell me so, but that's how it comes across lately with how aggressive you've been about it the last couple of seasons.

Vitriol? That's overly dramatic.
You take this stuff way too personally. We're talking about basketball things here. That doesn't need to lead into long monologues.

 

[Sigmapolis]

You told me earlier that you aren’t saying Fred would have fallen off a cliff but I’m not sure what else you are trying to say. People are saying he would have kept us as a perennial top 25 team with opportunities to jump up to a contender every once in a while. You are saying that is way to cardinal colored glasses recollection. So what do you actually think they would have done?

What I am saying is a response to the comment that prompted this --

That there was an "upward trajectory."

I just don't see it. Best case was the program stayed about where it was -- a pretty nice spot with the 10th to 20th best team in the country, granted, but not consistent enough or well-rounded enough (defense rebounding defense) to win a regular season conference championship or push deep into a run in March.

That was all.

I feel like both real and idealized Fred had peaked. That they were finding going from #15 consistently to #5 consistently was pretty difficult given the kinds of programs you had to consistently outperform up there.

Granted, I would have taken that high of a ceiling compared to the dungeon we find ourselves in.

Fred deserves a ton of credit for his time here. But "upward trajectory" more or less implies we were about to replace Kansas as the dominant program in the conference long-term. Sorry, I just don't see that.

 

[UNIclonefan]

Ya sure....because I am hearing loud rumblings about buying out a contract

The buyout is minimal compared to the loss of revenue from fan disinterest and apathy. The program is headed in one direction and it's not good.

 

[Urbandale2013]

What I am saying is a response to the comment that prompted this --

That there was an "upward trajectory."

I just don't see it. Best case was the program stayed about where it was -- a pretty nice spot with the 10th to 20th best team in the country, granted, but not consistent enough or well-rounded enough (defense rebounding defense) to win a regular season conference championship or push deep into a run in March.

That was all.

I feel like both real and idealized Fred had peaked. That they were finding going from #15 consistently to #5 consistently was pretty difficult given the kinds of programs you had to consistently outperform up there.

Granted, I would have taken that high of a ceiling compared to the dungeon we find ourselves in.

Fred deserves a ton of credit for his time here. But "upward trajectory" more or less implies we were about to replace Kansas as the dominant program in the conference long-term. Sorry, I just don't see that.

You seem stuck on the upward trajectory. Others have said it but by your definition upward trajectory means perennial top ten teams can’t be on an upward trajectory.

Fred had Iowa State on an upward trajectory during his 5 years here. There is no evidence that they were going to fall below a perennial top 25 team. There is potential they could have become a perennial top ten team but that’s incredibly hard to do. We would have regularly competed with Kansas for the Big 12 title. Maybe they would have still won more but we would have won at least once in the next 5 years. Do you agree with that assessment?

You keep seeming to argue that is an unrealistic assessment.

 

[BCClone]

You seem stuck on the upward trajectory. Others have said it but by your definition upward trajectory means perennial top ten teams can’t be on an upward trajectory.

Fred had Iowa State on an upward trajectory during his 5 years here. There is no evidence that they were going to fall below a perennial top 25 team. There is potential they could have become a perennial top ten team but that’s incredibly hard to do. We would have regularly competed with Kansas for the Big 12 title. Maybe they would have still won more but we would have won at least once in the next 5 years. Do you agree with that assessment?

You keep seeming to argue that is an unrealistic assessment.

I don’t agree that we for sure would have won a conference title in the next five years. Maybe tournament, but not conference title. Fred just didn’t have defense, which would have caused us to lose games we should not have.

 

[Urbandale2013]

I don’t agree that we for sure would have won a conference title in the next five years. Maybe tournament, but not conference title. Fred just didn’t have defense, which would have caused us to lose games we should not have.

The defense did get better as he was here. It was never going to be great but coupled with the offense it could be overcome. We finished one game back with the mess of a year that was his last. I think it was reasonable to expect we could have done it in the next 5 years maybe we didn’t but I think we would have at least been competing for it.

 

[NorthCyd]

I stand corrected. I'll leave it up for context though. I remember Noskowiak as Fred's white whale he had to get that year. Maybe that was Prohm, I don't know. So Fred's HS recruitment only amounted to Custer his last two years?

EDIT: Noskowiak was a Hoiberg recruit

You act like those were the only guys we recruited, which is not true. We missed out on some big recruits in that time period if memory serves.

 

[BCClone]

The defense did get better as he was here. It was never going to be great but coupled with the offense it could be overcome. We finished one game back with the mess of a year that was his last. I think it was reasonable to expect we could have done it in the next 5 years maybe we didn’t but I think we would have at least been competing for it.

After Prohms first year, who would have lead the charge? Many of the recruits had left.

 

[Statefan10]

You act like those were the only guys we recruited, which is not true. We missed out on some big recruits in that time period if memory serves.

Giorgos and Custer were taken in the 2014 class. Hallice Cooke came in that year too. Deonte followed in the spring. We were recruiting high level guys but none came after Fred decided to leave. We also were in the running for other transfers and GT's.

 

[Urbandale2013]

After Prohms first year, who would have lead the charge? Many of the recruits had left.

Well number one I think the next year is the year it would have happened. Also you have to assume the same injuries happen so that you have Monte and Naz back for two years instead of just one.

Obviously the 3rd year would have still been a down year but I believe it would have been better set up for a recovery. Ultimately we will never know though.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

Also, we need to remember that Fred would've had that exact same team back the next year AND he would've actually had recruits to bring in. Not Brady Ernst, Carter, or the kid from Mt. Pleasant.

"AND he would've actually had recruits to bring in"

Who said they hated recruiting? Be careful you are dangerously close to making Sig's points of "idealized Hoiberg tenure". Make no mistake......he sticks around we aren't where we are today if only not for stability. But let's not make it like multiple 30 win seasons along with screaming final four runs were just around the corner.

 

[DurangoCy]

Hate to burst your bubble but Prohm is not going anywhere this year.

You might be right, but holy crap is he trying to force Jamie's hand. I though (stupidly) we would be a bubble team, but he's gone full on diaper fire. At this point, I think we need a change.

 

[Statefan10]

"AND he would've actually had recruits to bring in"

Who said they hated recruiting? Be careful you are dangerously close to making Sig's points of "idealized Hoiberg tenure". Make no mistake......he sticks around we aren't where we are today if only not for stability. But let's not make it like multiple 30 win seasons along with screaming final four runs were just around the corner.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I don't know if you read the end of this post, but here's how I ended that..

"I think it's wishful thinking to think Fred would've made us into a perennial top-5 team every year. But we would've consistently been in the top-20 and our arguments on here would consist of why we got 2nd in the Big 12 instead of getting 1st. Yeah, I'd take that."

Who knows what Fred would've done here had he stayed, but trying to diminish what he did and what he was still building is dumb. Prior to Fred finding out the Bulls were moving on from Tibs, there were high level transfers AND recruits in SUKUP every single weekend during the fall on visits. There were guys that were essentially shoe ins to be Cyclones but obviously didn't end up making it here.

I'm on your side with the "screw Fred he f****** us and is the reason we're in this mess", but prior to him wanting to chase his dream, he was building an incredibly respectable, offensive juggernaut and had back to back seasons winning the Big 12 Tournament and getting high NCAA tournament seeds. If you think he would've taken a large step back, fine, I respect your opinion. I disagree though and think that he would've made that next step for our program.

 

[jsb]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I don't know if you read the end of this post, but here's how I ended that..

"I think it's wishful thinking to think Fred would've made us into a perennial top-5 team every year. But we would've consistently been in the top-20 and our arguments on here would consist of why we got 2nd in the Big 12 instead of getting 1st. Yeah, I'd take that."

Who knows what Fred would've done here had he stayed, but trying to diminish what he did and what he was still building is dumb. Prior to Fred finding out the Bulls were moving on from Tibs, there were high level transfers AND recruits in SUKUP every single weekend during the fall on visits. There were guys that were essentially shoe ins to be Cyclones but obviously didn't end up making it here.

I'm on your side with the "screw Fred he f****** us and is the reason we're in this mess", but prior to him wanting to chase his dream, he was building an incredibly respectable, offensive juggernaut and had back to back seasons winning the Big 12 Tournament and getting high NCAA tournament seeds. If you think he would've taken a large step back, fine, I respect your opinion. I disagree though and think that he would've made that next step for our program.

It’s a dumb argument because Hoiberg would have been far better then prohm the last two years. But he’s sucking **** in year two at nebraska. So the magic isn’t being recreated there.

 

[cayin]

The hometown hero, taking over for McD, the style of play, the comebacks, the most NCAA tourney appearances in a row, the Big 12 tourney fun, etc all played into it.

and lets not forget, had Niang not been been injured, there is a good chance they go to the final 4, maybe even a NT as UConn, who beat us won it all

 

[Statefan10]

It’s a dumb argument because Hoiberg would have been far better then prohm the last two years. But he’s sucking **** in year two at nebraska. So the magic isn’t being recreated there.

And that's why taking him back wouldn't immediately make us the same team it was when he was here. Things have changed across the entire landscape of CBB and will continue to change as more legislature is passed regarding amateurism.

Does that mean Fred won't find success ever at Nebraska or if he'd come back? Absolutely not. I mean, Fred's already grabbed some good transfers and ended up getting one of the best guard recruits for next year's class. He's also been trimming the fat of his own program these past two years and this year has ran into the same COVID issues as us and other teams have. I'd be shocked if Nebraska isn't at least respectable in the next few seasons.

 

[jsb]

And that's why taking him back wouldn't immediately make us the same team it was when he was here. Things have changed across the entire landscape of CBB and will continue to change as more legislature is passed regarding amateurism.

Does that mean Fred won't find success ever at Nebraska or if he'd come back? Absolutely not. I mean, Fred's already grabbed some good transfers and ended up getting one of the best guard recruits for next year's class. He's also been trimming the fat of his own program these past two years and this year has ran into the same COVID issues as us and other teams have. I'd be shocked if Nebraska isn't at least respectable in the next few seasons.

Frankly, I would be surprised. I think he’s proven not to be a great coach if he doesn’t have a bag man getting things done.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I don't know if you read the end of this post, but here's how I ended that..

"I think it's wishful thinking to think Fred would've made us into a perennial top-5 team every year. But we would've consistently been in the top-20 and our arguments on here would consist of why we got 2nd in the Big 12 instead of getting 1st. Yeah, I'd take that."

Who knows what Fred would've done here had he stayed, but trying to diminish what he did and what he was still building is dumb. Prior to Fred finding out the Bulls were moving on from Tibs, there were high level transfers AND recruits in SUKUP every single weekend during the fall on visits. There were guys that were essentially shoe ins to be Cyclones but obviously didn't end up making it here.

I'm on your side with the "screw Fred he f****** us and is the reason we're in this mess", but prior to him wanting to chase his dream, he was building an incredibly respectable, offensive juggernaut and had back to back seasons winning the Big 12 Tournament and getting high NCAA tournament seeds. If you think he would've taken a large step back, fine, I respect your opinion. I disagree though and think that he would've made that next step for our program.

No, I read your entire post and my last sentence was pointing out the absurd by being absurd. And to put on auto-pilot the thought that had he stayed every year we are tipping a glass of brew arguing why we finished 2nd instead of 1st is exhibit A of an "idealized Hoiberg tenure". That happens only if he really wanted to stay.....AND.....really liked to recruit and then...maybe.

Now, I really don't want to chase that hypothetical rabbit because I loved me some Fred, and I would just like to remember him for what he did...and not any of these woulda-shoulda-coulda's and why Steve Prohm for what he didn't accomplish with Fred's "legacy" is truly Damien from "The Omen".

 

[jsb]

and lets not forget, had Niang not been been injured, there is a good chance they go to the final 4, maybe even a NT as UConn, who beat us won it all

Or we could have played a bad game and lost.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

and lets not forget, had Niang not been been injured, there is a good chance they go to the final 4, maybe even a NT as UConn, who beat us won it all

And let's not forget how good 15-16 could have been had Naz not been injured and McKay bucked up. Of course then Naz wouldn't have been here for 16-17 and we may not have won 26 games and......oh, man that Steve Prohm.