Darian DeVries

[Iastfan112]

On the podcast this morning Chris and Brent discussed briefly how it's not really realistic at this point for new assistant coaches to sign on with where the program is at this point, and I have to agree. We just need a new coach and staff, plain and simple.

As for Fred's time, I don't know if it's necessarily overinflated, but I also am not sure if it would be held up as this sort of "Golden Age" era of Iowa State basketball if it had occurred under someone who wasn't a favored son and hometown hero the way Fred was. It also helps add to his mythology that he led us out of the Dark Ages of basketball that were happening under Greg McDermott. I think those emotional ties tend to skew perspective.

The only other coach that:
A.) Made a Sweet 16
B.) Made 4 tournament berths

was Johnny Orr and it took him MUCH longer to do so. Maybe Tim Floyd could have been that guy but he left even earlier than Hoiberg. Additionally, despite the bad UAB loss the overall arc of Hoiberg's tenure felt like it was on an upward trajectory. If you're going to point a Golden Age of ISU basketball, at least in most folks living memory Hoiberg's tenure is pretty much the best option.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I agree. I don’t want TJ. I want a break from the McDermott hoiberg prohm era. But it will be TJ.

Considering DeVries is right off the McDermott tree, I do not think you can make a case either of them is a "clean" break from the past. A clean break would be somebody like Craig Smith or Eric Henderson.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Additionally, despite the bad UAB loss the overall arc of Hoiberg's tenure felt like it was on an upward trajectory.

I am not sure where this notion comes from. Hoiberg had the team in the #10 to #15 range for a few years (or at least his last two) by that point and would generally finish towards the top of the Big 12 (though he would never win the regular season crown), but we were finding out that the program's lack of night-in night-out focus, defense, and rebounding meant they could beat anybody but they could also suffer some perplexing losses to inferior teams (e.g., SC, TTU, and UAB the last year), which put a cap on how far they could rise up rankings and how deep they could go in March.

If anything towards the end, I thought we were discovering the ceiling on Hoiball, not going to the moon.

 

[jsb]

Considering DeVries is right off the McDermott tree, I do not think you can make a case either of them is a "clean" break from the past. A clean break would be somebody like Craig Smith or Eric Henderson.

For sure. There have to be other options.

 

[Iastfan112]

I am not sure where this notion comes from. Hoiberg had the team in the #10 to #15 range for a few years (or at least his last two) by that point and would generally finish towards the top of the Big 12 (though he would never win the regular season crown), but we were finding out that the program's lack of night-in night-out focus, defense, and rebounding meant they could beat anybody but they could also suffer some perplexing losses to inferior teams (e.g., SC, TTU, and UAB the last year), which put a cap on how far they could rise up rankings and how deep they could go in March.

If anything towards the end, I thought we were discovering the ceiling on Hoiball, not going to the moon.

Team was returning it's core pieces and had just finished second in the Big 12. It was 1 season removed from a Sweet 16 appearance that likely could have been more if not for losing Niang to injury. This, despite the improved quality of the Big 12 from early in his tenure. Maybe it was his peak but the trajectory still felt positive.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Team was returning it's core pieces and had just finished second in the Big 12. It was 1 season removed from a Sweet 16 appearance that likely could have been more if not for losing Niang to injury. This, despite the improved quality of the Big 12 from early in his tenure. Maybe it was his peak but the trajectory still felt positive.

That sounds like a team that was cresting -- not just about to hit its real stride.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda on the Niang injury. You are what your record says you are.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda won the Big 12 regular season that year (or at least tied it) but Hoiberg refused to call a timeout when Baylor went on a three-point barrage in Hilton and we literally fumbled away a game in Manhattan against an inferior Kansas State team we should have slaughtered. Going 2-2 when you controlled your own fate to win the Big 12 if you went 4-0 does not argue for a program that was locked-in and disciplined every night.

The team that offseason was losing Bryce Dejean-Jones (obviously a headache but an NBA level SG of a talent), Hogue, and (and we didn't know it yet) most of the next year for Naz Mitrou-Long. We were bringing in nobody who deserved to play at that level except for Deonte Burton. That's a net downgrade in talent, and Hoiberg had nothing coming in on the recruiting pipeline except a legacy (Nick Weiler-Babb, who turned out to be a good player).

You were right the team was humming, but only with limits, and it was not "on an upwards trajectory."

It was about to crash.

 

[BigTurk]

Hey Greg.

There wasn't a sane person in the ISU fan base or affiliated with the university that thought any of those guys would be around when Morgan got run. That's complete revisionist history.

And I remember the sideline incident in CF very well. It was 100% instigated by McDermott. He called Homan a gorilla after a hard but clean foul and Wayne was sticking up for our guys. i never understood why Morgan got so much flack for that while Chewey pretty much got a free pass.. That was one of the reasons I never liked McDermott getting the ISU job and I wouldn't blame Morgan at all for being pissed about the way the whole thing was handled. McDermott beat UNI once while he was here and he was almost in tears afterward because he felt bad for UNI. He never seemed like he wanted to he here to me, but he sure enjoyed cashing the checks.

A friend of mine grew up with McDermott and told me once McDermott wanted the Iowa job (I believe Iowa hired a coach the next year) but ISU beat Iowa to the punch.

 

[NoCreativity]

Compare that to how some posters, and yes, this includes you, still hold that Ohio State loss over Prohm's head like the 'effin Sword of Damocles. Personally, and I'm willing to acknowledge I may be wrong, but just on this site I don't remember nearly the level of anger and vitriol towards Fred for losing to a #14 mid-major team that I remember was directed towards CSP for losing to an #11 seed Big Ten team in the immediate aftermath of the games.

Hmm, probably because Freds teams hadnt just lost 8 out of its last 10 games going into the postseason that year with the most stacked roster of our lifetime.

Go look at Ohio States schedule that year, they were one of the worst teams to ever get an at-large bid, they couldnt even finish .500 in the Big 10.

 

[Iastfan112]

That sounds like a team that was cresting -- not just about to hit its real stride.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda on the Niang injury. You are what your record says you are.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda won the Big 12 regular season that year (or at least tied it) but Hoiberg refused to call a timeout when Baylor went on a three-point barrage in Hilton and we literally fumbled away a game in Manhattan against an inferior Kansas State team we should have slaughtered. Going 2-2 when you controlled your own fate to win the Big 12 if you went 4-0 does not argue for a program that was locked-in and disciplined every night.

The team that offseason was losing Bryce Dejean-Jones (obviously a headache but an NBA level SG of a talent), Hogue, and (and we didn't know it yet) most of the next year for Naz Mitrou-Long. We were bringing in nobody who deserved to play at that level except for Deonte Burton. That's a net downgrade in talent, and Hoiberg had nothing coming in on the recruiting pipeline except a legacy (Nick Weiler-Babb, who turned out to be a good player).

You were right the team was humming, but only with limits, and it was not "on an upwards trajectory."

It was about to crash.

Dejean-Jones was not much of a subtraction. Even if we ignore the off the court stuff that may have had a negative impact the second half of the season he just was not all that productive. Yes, Hogue was a loss but he was an anciliary piece, Burton more or less replaced his production. That, coupled with improvement from the rest of the roster meant a good chance at an even better season the following year.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Hmm, probably because Freds teams hadnt just lost 8 out of its last 10 games going into the postseason that year.

Thanks for at least acknowledging that it's all about who the coach is for you then. At least you're admitting it now.

 

[madguy30]

I am not sure where this notion comes from. Hoiberg had the team in the #10 to #15 range for a few years (or at least his last two) by that point and would generally finish towards the top of the Big 12 (though he would never win the regular season crown), but we were finding out that the program's lack of night-in night-out focus, defense, and rebounding meant they could beat anybody but they could also suffer some perplexing losses to inferior teams (e.g., SC, TTU, and UAB the last year), which put a cap on how far they could rise up rankings and how deep they could go in March.

If anything towards the end, I thought we were discovering the ceiling on Hoiball, not going to the moon.

There were indications that the 'hands off' approach or whatever you want to call it in some situations seemed to backfire as well.

 

[Urbandale2013]

I am not sure where this notion comes from. Hoiberg had the team in the #10 to #15 range for a few years (or at least his last two) by that point and would generally finish towards the top of the Big 12 (though he would never win the regular season crown), but we were finding out that the program's lack of night-in night-out focus, defense, and rebounding meant they could beat anybody but they could also suffer some perplexing losses to inferior teams (e.g., SC, TTU, and UAB the last year), which put a cap on how far they could rise up rankings and how deep they could go in March.

If anything towards the end, I thought we were discovering the ceiling on Hoiball, not going to the moon.

Maybe it was the ceiling but it felt like it was sustainable and Fred had shown a willingness to learn. We still had talent for two years so who knows.

 

[NoCreativity]

Thanks for at least acknowledging that it's all about who the coach is for you then. At least you're admitting it now.

Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about. My point is that people would have been alot more forgiven of Prohm that year if maybe he didnt finished 2-6 on the back half of the schedule after we were tied for 1st through 10 games.I dont know about you, but I dont like losing 8 games total in February and early March.

Oh, guess, what else i dont like, getting blown out in Hilton by TCU, or not even being remotely competitive in alot of those losses in February that year. Everyone has a short memory because they got hot in Kansas City, but that team was a poorly coached dumpster fire the second half of their season. The onlly game they won during that stretch was against K-State who was playing without Dean Wade.

Im ready to move on anyways and talk about the future and so are most people, you are the one thats been on here the last few days living in the past.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Dejean-Jones was not much of a subtraction. Even if we ignore the off the court stuff that may have had a negative impact the second half of the season he just was not all that productive. Yes, Hogue was a loss but he was an anciliary piece, Burton more or less replaced his production. That, coupled with improvement from the rest of the roster meant a good chance at an even better season the following year.

You glossed the subtraction of Naz to injury. That one really hurt.

We went into that season with six Big 12 players...

Morris
Thomas
Nader
Niang
McKay
---
(1/3) Naz (2/3) Burton

Nader, Niang, and McKay were seniors. We all thought Morris would be gone after his junior year. Mitrou-Long, Thomas, and Burton are some really nice guards, yes, but we did not know if Naz would ever be back at that point and there was nobody coming up to replace them for the next year from the Hoiberg regime.

Again, the program was cresting/not built for long-term success at that point.

I will never understand this "the program was trending upwards and we were about to take the next step" notion. We were in win-now mode, to use a term from professional sports, trading away draft picks and young players and messing up our cap long-term to maximize our chances today at the expense of tomorrow.

What we saw was as good as it was going to get, and it wasn't likely to stay that way long.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Maybe it was the ceiling but it felt like it was sustainable and Fred had shown a willingness to learn. We still had talent for two years so who knows.

...or cracks in the foundation were starting to form.

-- hugely talented team, but only for 1-2 more years with little in the pipeline to replace the departing
-- lack of consistent discipline, defense, and rebounding left the team really vulnerable on cold shooting nights, which put a ceiling on where we could finish in the national rankings, the Big 12, and in March
-- discipline issues... McKay and BDJ in particular... blew up and ruined team cohesion and the locker room, but even the other guys on the team seemed to have an undeserved arrogance about them that year
-- you knew what you would get from Monté and Georges every night, but everybody else was a crapshoot
-- other programs were now wise to the transfer market, and other coaches had time to study the Hoiberg offense and develop countermeasures to it/steal from it, which was going to put pressure on Fred
-- heck, Bill Self more-or-less reinvented himself as Hoiball only with even better transfers and 4*/5* talent

I remember these problems and thus cannot think the team had a significant quantity of headspace above where it could go at that point. I think Hoiball had more-or-less hit its equilibrium those last two seasons.

Way easier to go from a doormat to a competitive program than it is to go from a competitive program to one of the consistently five or ten best teams in the country as a non-blue blood, like say UVA or TTU.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Hmm, probably because Freds teams hadnt just lost 8 out of its last 10 games going into the postseason that year with the most stacked roster of our lifetime.

Go look at Ohio States schedule that year, they were one of the worst teams to ever get an at-large bid, they couldnt even finish .500 in the Big 10.

To your first point, you are either knowingly lying about that, or you are just being ignorant and not taking the time to actually look up what you are writing about. In the last 10 games of the regular season before the Big 12 tournament we were 4-6; not great, but certainly better than 2-8. I'll even link it for you.

kenpom.com subscription

As to your second point your assertion that Ohio State is one of the worst teams to ever get an at-large bid (and before they were the worst at-large team ever, now they're just one of the worst? Which one is it? Be consistent) is still absurd. You are honestly going to make the claim that they are a worse team than the occasional mid-major who sneaks in as an at-large that also gets an 11 seed, like UNI back in 2005? You are going to claim that they were a worse team than St. John's that same tournament, who was an 11 seed who had to play in the First Four against Arizona State and got smoked? Stop being full of it.

Who was the better team? The 2015 ISU team or the 2019 ISU team? I think we can both agree it was the 2015 team.

Who was the better team? The 2014 UAB or the 2019 OSU team? I think most people on here would say the OSU team, although you might not.

Why do you still scream in rage about that 2019 ISU team losing to a better OSU team more than you ever did about the 2015 team losing to a worse team?

Because you made up your mind from Day One to dislike Prohm. And to your credit at least now you're being honest about it. But don't insult our intelligence by trying to tell us that it's not personal for you.

 

[NoCreativity]

You glossed the subtraction of Naz to injury. That one really hurt.

We went into that season with six Big 12 players...

Morris
Thomas
Nader
Niang
McKay
---
(1/3) Naz (2/3) Burton

Nader, Niang, and McKay were seniors. We all thought Morris would be gone after his junior year. Mitrou-Long, Thomas, and Burton are some really nice guards, yes, but we did not know if Naz would ever be back at that point and there was nobody coming up to replace them for the next year from the Hoiberg regime.

Again, the program was cresting/not built for long-term success at that point.

I will never understand this "the program was trending upwards and we were about to take the next step" notion. We were in win-now mode, to use a term from professional sports, trading away draft picks and young players and messing up our cap long-term to maximize our chances today at the expense of tomorrow.

What we saw was as good as it was going to get, and it wasn't likely to stay that way long.

I generally agree with you on alot of things, but to say Hoibergs program was about to become a dumpster fire is by far the dumbest thing Ive ever read on this site. Everyone knew he wanted to go to the NBA, so you cant have it both ways. Had he made it clear he wanted to be at Iowa State forever his recruiting and success would have gotten even better.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I generally agree with you on alot of things, but to say Hoibergs program was about to become a dumpster fire is by far the dumbest thing Ive ever read on this site. Everyone knew he wanted to go to the NBA, so you cant have it both ways. Had he made it clear he wanted to be at Iowa State forever his recruiting and success would have gotten even better.

This is exactly the problem. Would some hypothetical Hoiberg -- one committed to Ames for the rest of his career -- have done what you say? Maybe, probably, might have been a good chance of it.

But that Fred didn't exist.

I am talking about what we had an what Fred's successor, Prohm or otherwise, would be walking into.

And what they were walking into wasn't a powerhouse stocked with talent for the next half-decade and a flush recruiting pipeline, but a terrific one-year roster (turned out to be two because Morris unexpectedly came back and because of Naz's injuries) that was about to go off a cliff and turn into a near ground-up rebuild.

It was not on an "upward trajectory." It was a very good program that had found its (albeit very high, but not quite high enough to win the Big 12 or push deep into March, evidently) ceiling.

You have to take Fred and the program as they were, not as you wish them to have been.

You are the one that wants it both ways -- you get to synthesize an idealized and permanent Hoiberg regime "on an upward trajectory" in your head to judge Prohm/whoever against, when Prohm had to deal with reality. And he's done poorly and deserves a pink slip, but let's not act like it was utterly unconscionable he could fail.

 

[NoCreativity]

To your first point, you are either knowingly lying about that, or you are just being ignorant and not taking the time to actually look up what you are writing about. In the last 10 games of the regular season before the Big 12 tournament we were 4-6; not great, but certainly better than 2-8. I'll even link it for you.

kenpom.com subscription

As to your second point your assertion that Ohio State is one of the worst teams to ever get an at-large bid (and before they were the worst at-large team ever, now they're just one of the worst? Which one is it? Be consistent) is still absurd. You are honestly going to make the claim that they are a worse team than the occasional mid-major who sneaks in as an at-large that also gets an 11 seed, like UNI back in 2005? You are going to claim that they were a worse team than St. John's that same tournament, who was an 11 seed who had to play in the First Four against Arizona State and got smoked? Stop being full of it.

Who was the better team? The 2015 ISU team or the 2019 ISU team? I think we can both agree it was the 2015 team.

Who was the better team? The 2014 UAB or the 2019 OSU team? I think most people on here would say the OSU team, although you might not.

Why do you still scream in rage about that 2019 ISU team losing to a better OSU team more than you ever did about the 2015 team losing to a worse team?

Because you made up your mind from Day One to dislike Prohm. And to your credit at least now you're being honest about it. But don't insult our intelligence by trying to tell us that it's not personal for you.

You're the one insulting our intelligence because you dont understand why people were a little more forgiving about the UAB loss years later based on how that entire season and previous seasons played out.

 

[Urbandale2013]

...or cracks in the foundation were starting to form.

-- hugely talented team, but only for 1-2 more years with little in the pipeline to replace the departing
-- lack of consistent discipline, defense, and rebounding left the team really vulnerable on cold shooting nights, which put a ceiling on where we could finish in the national rankings, the Big 12, and in March
-- discipline issues... McKay and BDJ in particular... blew up and ruined team cohesion and the locker room, but even the other guys on the team seemed to have an undeserved arrogance about them that year
-- you knew what you would get from Monté and Georges every night, but everybody else was a crapshoot
-- other programs were now wise to the transfer market, and other coaches had time to study the Hoiberg offense and develop countermeasures to it/steal from it, which was going to put pressure on Fred
-- heck, Bill Self more-or-less reinvented himself as Hoiball only with even better transfers and 4*/5* talent

I remember these problems and thus cannot think the team had a significant quantity of headspace above where it could go at that point. I think Hoiball had more-or-less hit its equilibrium those last two seasons.

Way easier to go from a doormat to a competitive program than it is to go from a competitive program to one of the consistently five or ten best teams in the country as a non-blue blood, like say UVA or TTU.

Maybe he would have crashed. We will never know. You are looking at it from a worst case scenario really. I think it is fair to say we would have taken a step back but to conclude we would be awful even had Hoiberg stayed is asinine. I think you have to judge Hoiberg with what we know. He had us going really really well. There was potential to take the next step. There was potential it could have crashed. Likely we would have remained a consistent top 25 team and had potential to make that next leap.