Batemon & Toure

[CySmurf]

Both players are in there during important times of the game. Both contribute. Both will be counted on to be leaders and mentors for Christian Wiggins and Yusef Gray Jr next year. I have no doubt Toure will be a much better shooter next year. And will continue the hustle and effort that Tamin set the example for under TJ's leadership.

 

[NENick]

I heard a reference today that made think of a comp for Toure: Michael Cooper. Long, athletic defender who improved his shooting over time.

 

[AuH2O]

Imo it's not overthinking it to assume that for whatever reason the staff and probably players have determined that things operate well enough as they generally are (with some changes as someone like Batemon has gotten more confident) for this group to win 25 games with the way they've generally gone about things.

I don't think starting Toure is trying to fix his offense; it's just a better fit for what they're comfortable with.

I'll be curious to see what happens on here if/when Toure does start to hit one or two threes here and there over the next few weeks.

I do think it would be a risk to mess with the rotation at this point. And people would be hyped if Toure hit a couple threes. Just like they’d be hyped if BB went 7-8 from the line. It would be awesome but unexpected as that’s not their game right at the moment.

I love Toure and Ithink he will be a terrific two way PG/combo next year. And of course he needs to play. But it’s incredibly hard to win consistently against solid teams with a wing that isn’t even being guarded. It blows up the entire offense and leads to live ball turnovers and missed shots. Those transition opportunities for the opponent are huge in countering ISUs half court defense.

 

[SolterraCyclone]

I think people are overthinking this a little bit. At the beginning of the year Toure was a better player than Batemon, so he was starting. Now Batemon is a better player. Put your best starting 5 out there and play them a lot of minutes. Because Jones was so awesome off the bench I think we have this idea that it’s normal to play a couple bench guys starter minutes. Not really normal and certainly not necessary.

Clearly Toure needs to play, but I’d play Batemon a lot more mins with Heise the primary bench G and Toure as the second guard off the bench.

NCAA tourney starts in 10 days. Probably nothing you’re going to do to fix a SG that can’t shoot and struggles with TOs right now. That’s going to take a full offseason.

I think the Jones takes are kind of fool’s gold. Jones was good coming off the bench because we had two capable guards who could start. The minute we lost one (then both) he was starting.

I don’t think it makes much sense to start an inferior player (who honestly is not playing at a B12 level) right now, just so we don’t disrupt the starting lineup. That said, I do understand the value of a volume scorer coming off the bench though.

 

[NENick]

I think the Jones takes are kind of fool’s gold. Jones was good coming off the bench because we had two capable guards who could start. The minute we lost one (then both) he was starting.

I don’t think it makes much sense to start an inferior player (who honestly is not playing at a B12 level) right now, just so we don’t disrupt the starting lineup. That said, I do understand the value of a volume scorer coming off the bench though.

I'll have to go back and check, but I thought CuJo started one game, then went to TJ and said he wanted to keep coming off the bench.

I disagree with your statement that Toure is not playing at a Big 12 level.

 

[flycy]

I think people are overthinking this a little bit. At the beginning of the year Toure was a better player than Batemon, so he was starting. Now Batemon is a better player. Put your best starting 5 out there and play them a lot of minutes. Because Jones was so awesome off the bench I think we have this idea that it’s normal to play a couple bench guys starter minutes. Not really normal and certainly not necessary.

Clearly Toure needs to play, but I’d play Batemon a lot more mins with Heise the primary bench G and Toure as the second guard off the bench.

NCAA tourney starts in 10 days. Probably nothing you’re going to do to fix a SG that can’t shoot and struggles with TOs right now. That’s going to take a full offseason.

The best thing about Toure is he can bring the ball up relieving that duty from Lipsey. Lipsey is much better when he doesn't have to do that all game.

 

[CYdTracked]

We're already seeing a shift in minutes as Batemon has played more minutes than Toure in the past 5 games now. Toure's defense is not a problem but he's really struggled shooting it lately. It's to the point that teams are going to sag and dare him to hit a 3 like they did with Lipsey his freshman year. Toure's last 3 he made was back on 2/16. Batemon keeps getting better as the season goes on and I like him as the scoring threat off the bench like Curtis Jones was.

This is the first time in the TJ era we've had a legit 8 deep rotation for most of the season. We have gone 8 or 9 deep before but the quality of our 6-8 this year is the best we've had in the TJ era IMO. If we had an injury to a starter there is not as big of a drop off as there was 8n past seasons with Heise Batemon and Pleta. This freshman class has been a big hit even with Toure's recent struggles.

 

[AuH2O]

I think the Jones takes are kind of fool’s gold. Jones was good coming off the bench because we had two capable guards who could start. The minute we lost one (then both) he was starting.

I don’t think it makes much sense to start an inferior player (who honestly is not playing at a B12 level) right now, just so we don’t disrupt the starting lineup. That said, I do understand the value of a volume scorer coming off the bench though.

The thing about CuJo was he was coming off the bench initially because Tamin was the only true PG, and early in the year Gilbert was playing like an AA.

So it was an odd and pretty rare case where a guy that started the season on the bench became one of the top couple guys on the team, and mostly kept coming off the bench.

 

[SolterraCyclone]

I'll have to go back and check, but I thought CuJo started one game, then went to TJ and said he wanted to keep coming off the bench.

I disagree with your statement that Toure is not playing at a Big 12 level.

Oh you’re right. He continued to come off the bench until Lipsey got hurt. I stand corrected.

We’ll agree to disagree on Toure’s quality of play right now. I do hope he can flip a switch come tournament time.

 

[Cycsk]

Toure's contributions on defense are underappreciated by many.

 

[cayin]

I don’t think in his current form he can even do a pull up jump shot. It’s there for the taking and he won’t even try because he has a set shot, lacks confidence, and he needs to be wide open. Plenty of pull ups in the highlights I shared. It’s a problem for a point guard. We need him to more than set shoot.

Also agreed on the flailing of the legs lol but that’s easier to coach out of someone than changing their entire damn form. And it didn’t/hasn’t worked…..

I love Toure and what he has done for us and what he can do for us in the future. What I don't understand is how can a guy get to a level of a division guard not have a pull up jumper off the dribble? He is athletic enough, he has good enough hand eye cooridination. You would think he would be repping the hell out of that kind of thing.

 

[AuH2O]

Toure's contributions on defense are underappreciated by many.

Everybody is fully aware that Toure is an elite on-ball defender. And we can see the impacts when he can guard a guy like Smith or Stirtz where an offense is completely dependent on him.

But if ISU isn’t turning teams over at a high rate and have to be dependent on half court offense, this team struggles mightily. Likewise, this team was on an entirely different level when Toure was a willing shooter and was attacking the rim.

I think people actually under appreciate how much having a guard that isn’t effective on offense hurts the team. There’s a lot of thought among fans that it’s not that big of a deal because ISU doesn’t need him to score. It doesn’t work that way. It has a huge impact on the rest of the offense. The lane is jammed and that kills opportunities for Jefferson and Lipsey to get in the lane. And it impacts our defense because it means more missed shots and turnovers. That means more transition and ability for teams to s ore before ISUs half court defense is set.

At this point TJ probably will and should just role with what he’s got, while getting Batemon in early and playing big minutes. If it was January and everybody was playing like they are now I’d definitely be starting Batemon, I don’t think you do that in March.

 

[Psiclone]

Batemon seems to be in the Cujo role that works well coming off the bench with a spark.

Sometimes that dynamic works best.

Looks like the staff has leaned into it as the season has moved along.

Agree, not a good time to change lineups, could mess with team's rhythm. Also need continuity in scoring from the bench. Having Toure coming off the bench could lead to dry spells offensively, especially with Heise being inconsistent on his outside shot. It's good to have Lipsey not playing PG as much as it conserves his energy which is needed in crunch time.

 

[SolterraCyclone]

Toure's contributions on defense are underappreciated by many.

He’s averaging a +/- of -8.3 the last 5 games. Means opponents are outscoring us by over 8 points when he’s on the floor in the last 5. And keep in mind that is only in 15-20 minutes of game time too.

 

[VeloClone]

Toure is what he is. He’s an elite defender and a good ball handler who can drive to the basket. He also isn’t a very good shooter. The problem is that also describes Lipsey. It’s tough in a half court offense when your two guards both shoot under 30% from 3. And in the half court you want the senior Lipsey running things. This leaves Toure as a liability, not because of his skills, but because his skills don’t fit well next to Lipsey. Next year I think Toure and Batemon can be a top backcourt in the country. They complement each other well.

Toure seems like the kind of personality who is willing and eager to put in the work to perfect a shot. ISU has capable coaches who can get him there. I'm not predicting a Naz Long jump in shooting ability between Fr and So seasons (.278 - .400, +3.4 att), but I can always hope for it... I would be satisfied with a Tamin Lipsey jump in shooting ability between Fr and So seasons (.200 - .391, +2.4 att).



As a note, Killyan was shooting .333 from 3 - which is enough to make defenses respect him - before his 0 fer slump started with BYU. He had hit at least one in 7 of the 8 games before BYU. He has gone 0-11 in the five games since. It is as much a confidence thing as anything else.

 

[AuH2O]

Toure seems like the kind of personality who is willing and eager to put in the work to perfect a shot. ISU has capable coaches who can get him there. I'm not predicting a Naz Long jump in shooting ability between Fr and So seasons (.278 - .400, +3.4 att), but I can always hope for it... I would be satisfied with a Tamin Lipsey jump in shooting ability between Fr and So seasons (.200 - .391, +2.4 att).



As a note, Killyan was shooting .333 from 3 - which is enough to make defenses respect him - before his 0 fer slump started with BYU. He had hit at least one in 7 of the 8 games before BYU. He has gone 0-11 in the five games since. It is as much a confidence thing as anything else.

I think we will see an incredible player in Toure next season. He’s a dog that wants win. He just needs to go full Naz this offseason. The day after this season ends that shot form needs to be deconstructed. Start from scratch and then get up tens of thousands of shots. If he does that and tightens up his handles, kid could be ready to play in the NBA.

 

[Cyfan1965]

Somebody ran into Bateman and fell to the floor. I do not remember a freshman with a game or a body like his. I know people who know him personally, they played with him and against him and to a man they say he is a super kid! The only complaint is WI can't keep kids like him at home with TJ at ISU.

 

[gocy444]

Batemon could be a 15+ ppg guy next year.

 

[Kettes]

I think we will see an incredible player in Toure next season. He’s a dog that wants win. He just needs to go full Naz this offseason. The day after this season ends that shot form needs to be deconstructed. Start from scratch and then get up tens of thousands of shots. If he does that and tightens up his handles, kid could be ready to play in the NBA.

I totally concur. I suspect he'll put in the time, off-season, to sort out his shooting issues.

 

[NWICY]

For all the people complaining in this thread, you would think the coaches never talk to these players and let them know the plan. No one here has posted yet that Batemon is demanding the start. CuJo did great being the 6th man who can says Batemon isn't comfortable doing that this yr.
With Tamin gone after this season there will be plenty of time for both and hopefully they both have offseason improvement as many of TJ's players do.

The other thing is no one knows how the portal is going to shake out. With both the men's and women's program I don't count anyone being back until the big portal season is over. That part is the sad part to me. But that is why the staff gets paid.