Let’s talk point guards

[AuH2O]

monte kinda played defense and teams kinda play defense on lipsey. I’ll take the guy who can actually score and also is a better playmaker over the goodish defender who doesn’t really need to be guarded.

Lipsey is scoring more than Monte as a freshman despite a much slower pace. Lipsey averages more assists despite having less talent around him. The league is significantly better by every metric this year. Monte was defending hoping to keep the opponent in the 70s. This years team wins with defense.

It’s hard to how Monte would’ve done if thrust into a heavy usage role like Tamin. But it’s certainly a fair argument that Tamin is having a better freshman year.

 

[isufbcurt]

But let's be honest, Lipsey is no ZRF - Lord High Knower of all things basketball. This narcistic blow hard can see things 99% of basketball fandom can't. We are all intoxicated by yet another year of TJ and his team over performing, gathering accolades across the CB world and heading for the tourney - but the incomparably brilliant @ZRF can see through the façade and his finger on the pulse of the real train wreck that is ISU Men's Basketball

I was thinking how impressive it is that the CF powers got John Wooden to post commentary on the board.

 

[MyNameEhJeff]

Over the course of the conference season he's increasingly gotten sloppy with his passes. Often the decisions themselves aren't but he's become nonchalant. Especially when his dribble is stopped he's telegraphed passes and floated them out there. Since the 2nd half of the Tech game it's become a routine problem.

The last two games he's has 6 turnovers. I'm not saying you sit him for several minutes, but I see no harm in pulling him for a minute, maybe two, and seeing what that does for him. You are acting like I'm saying he's a bad player. I'm not. He's just developed some really bad habits in the passing department and I think a little awareness reminder could help.

Did you have this same energy 3 games ago when he only had 1 turnover vs OKST - arguably the best defensive team in our conference? Or how about the first time we played OKST when he had zero turnovers? Or what about our win vs KU when he only had 2 turnovers and almost had a triple double? Are you keeping this same energy when he’s had some great games, or do you only like to cherry pick and pile it on and dog the kid after 2 off games?

 

[nfrine]

I was thinking how impressive it is that the CF powers got John Wooden to post commentary on the board.

ZRF is closer to the "Z" Jim Zabel than Wooden.

 

[ISUTex]

You are bashing him though. He’s the best freshman PG in the best conference in America. Sure he’s had a bad stretch with turnovers, but the kid is stuffing the stat sheet every game. Yesterday he had 4 steals, 7 rebounds, 6 assists and 9 points. He had a couple boneheaded plays, but he’s a freshman, playing in the best conference in America, against the #12 team in America who happens to be one of the oldest and most experienced team in the country.

I’m not saying he’s the next Monte or will even be as good as Monte, but Monte’s freshman year he averaged 6.8 points, 3.7 assists, 2.6 rebounds and 1.3 steals a game.

Tamin’s averaging 7.5 ppg , 3.7 rebounds a game, 4.8 assists, and 2 steals - all better than Monte. (But Deandre Kane!)

Monte’s soph year 11.9 ppg, 5.2 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 1.9 steals per game. Tamin’s freshman year stats (on a much less offensively talented squad than what Monte had) are better than Monte’s freshman year, and are more similar to Monte’s soph year, while playing 5 mins less per game than Monte played.

Tamin’s numbers are better than Haliburton’s numbers were as a freshman too, playing 4 mins less per game than TH played. Poor take, my guy.

Yeah, but he can't shoot. What would Tyrese and Monte's stats have looked like had Babb and Kane not been on their teams? I like Lipsey, but holy **** a starting Big 12 PG needs to be able to hit threes. It absolutely kills the offense at times. Imagine how much easier it would be for Tamin to drive if he was a threat to hit a three.

 

[ISUTex]

Let's give Lipsey senior Ejim, Niang, Naz and Kane to work with.

Monte was great. He didn't have to carry a load and ISU sort of played defense.

Lipsey is not carrying anything. This year's team is a total team effort.

 

[madguy30]

Lipsey is not carrying anything. This year's team is a total team effort.

He's the most reliable to get the ball down the court and isn't under someone like Kane's wing.

 

[MyNameEhJeff]

Yeah, but he can't shoot. What would Tyrese and Monte's stats have looked like had Babb and Kane not been on their teams? I like Lipsey, but holy **** a starting Big 12 PG needs to be able to hit threes. It absolutely kills the offense at times. Imagine how much easier it would be for Tamin to drive if he was a threat to hit a three.

He’s a facilitator. He gets the ball to the shooters and is aggressive taking the ball to the cup. Yeah it would be nice if he could also shoot the 3 but he does so many other intangible things that don’t always show up in the box score, I personally don’t care that he doesn’t shoot the 3. Some of you can’t let the freshman kid be human. He’s been fantastic for us. Is he perfect? No. But statistically he’s been as good or better than maybe any freshman we’ve ever seen at ISU before

 

[ISUTex]

He's the most reliable to get the ball down the court and isn't under someone like Kane's wing.

Holmes? Not as good as Kane, but he's out there with him.

 

[isucy86]

It’s honestly a good question. I’m not bashing him. I just think theirs better options. He plays hard. Defends great. But he has mental lapses and has zero offense. When a defensive player doesn’t have to guard him at the perimeter and can shadow someone else thats not a good situation to be in on offense.

6 turnovers is a bad game by Lipsey. But overall, I think he has exceeded everyone's expectation for his freshman year. I expect Lipsey will be on Big12 All-Freshman team.

I believe Lipsey will start next year, but even if he doesn't he'll play 25+mpg. The key is if Williams improves his jumper to allow TJ to start Lipsey at PG & Williams at CG.

 

[ISUTex]

He’s a facilitator. He gets the ball to the shooters and is aggressive taking the ball to the cup. Yeah it would be nice if he could also shoot the 3 but he does so many other intangible things that don’t always show up in the box score, I personally don’t care that he doesn’t shoot the 3. Some of you can’t let the freshman kid be human. He’s been fantastic for us. Is he perfect? No. But statistically he’s been as good or better than maybe any freshman we’ve ever seen at ISU before

That's great. Imaging how much better he would be if he were a threat to shoot. I predict he's in the gym all summer working on shooting and comes back next fall ready to dominate.

 

[ZRF]

Did you have this same energy 3 games ago when he only had 1 turnover vs OKST - arguably the best defensive team in our conference? Or how about the first time we played OKST when he had zero turnovers? Or what about our win vs KU when he only had 2 turnovers and almost had a triple double? Are you keeping this same energy when he’s had some great games, or do you only like to cherry pick and pile it on and dog the kid after 2 off games?

Literally where have you been? For a large part of the year he has been our best player and I've said as much, repeatedly. With that said he has been extremely sloppy with the ball the last several weeks and we will have a hard time winning games with him turning the ball over 6 times. The fact that he has shown, numerous times, to be capable of limiting his turnovers kind of makes my point.

If you watch Lipsey play, and focus on the games he has excessive turnovers, he is often committing the same type of TOs, ones where he gets careless with fundamentals. The Tech road game collapse started when he nonchalantly airmailed a skip pass to a wide open Grill for three. It wasn't about it "being a mistake", or the turnover itself, rather that he kind of carelessly flipped or over. He has a tendency to do those things in bunches. All that I suggested was to use a substitution to try to prevent those issues before they snowball. In no way shape, or form, have I dogged Lindsay. If anything, I'm suggesting we maybe utilize more in game strategical adjustments to thwart some of our recurring issues. If anything its more about the staff than it is Lipsey.

 

[CyHans]

Thankfully we got Lipsey back... he's really good! Williams will back him up.

Or Williams will take the role that Holmes played.

 

[ISUTex]

He’s a facilitator. He gets the ball to the shooters and is aggressive taking the ball to the cup. Yeah it would be nice if he could also shoot the 3 but he does so many other intangible things that don’t always show up in the box score, I personally don’t care that he doesn’t shoot the 3. Some of you can’t let the freshman kid be human. He’s been fantastic for us. Is he perfect? No. But statistically he’s been as good or better than maybe any freshman we’ve ever seen at ISU before

It may not bother you that he doesn't shoot, but it bugs the crap out of me. Especially when Jones is in the game. It's almost like 3on5 on offense. Yes Lipsey can drive, and I really like Lipsey. He does everything else really well. Especially for a freshman. But, I'm sure Big 12 defenses also love the fact that he doesn't shoot. Makes it that much easier for them.

 

[ZRF]

He’s a facilitator. He gets the ball to the shooters and is aggressive taking the ball to the cup. Yeah it would be nice if he could also shoot the 3 but he does so many other intangible things that don’t always show up in the box score, I personally don’t care that he doesn’t shoot the 3. Some of you can’t let the freshman kid be human. He’s been fantastic for us. Is he perfect? No. But statistically he’s been as good or better than maybe any freshman we’ve ever seen at ISU before

Like you said, that part of his game will likely come.

There's only two things I think are important for Lipsey and a shooter. It's probably in his best interest to shoot 1-2 threes a game as it makes the opposition stay honest and prevents the lane packing we saw against Mizzou (2nd half) and Texas Tech. More importantly he needs to abstain from the hesitation issues which also compromised his midrange J, which when shot in rhythm is effective.

He prefers to take it to the hole which is fine. He just needs to maintain enough 'honesty' to his game to make teams extend their defense. As long as he does that we really shouldn't care if he's a great 3 ball shooter. As he matures and gets more comfortable that will come with time.

 

[MyNameEhJeff]

Literally where have you been? For a large part of the year he has been our best player and I've said as much, repeatedly. With that said he has been extremely sloppy with the ball the last several weeks and we will have a hard time winning games with him turning the ball over 6 times. The fact that he has shown, numerous times, to be capable of limiting his turnovers kind of makes my point.

If you watch Lipsey play, and focus on the games he has excessive turnovers, he is often committing the same type of TOs, ones where he gets careless with fundamentals. The Tech road game collapse started when he nonchalantly airmailed a skip pass to a wide open Grill for three. It wasn't about it "being a mistake", or the turnover itself, rather that he kind of carelessly flipped or over. He has a tendency to do those things in bunches. All that I suggested was to use a substitution to try to prevent those issues before they snowball. In no way shape, or form, have I dogged Lindsay. If anything, I'm suggesting we maybe utilize more in game strategical adjustments to thwart some of our recurring issues. If anything it’s more about the staff than it is Lipsey.

In the last several weeks his turnovers have been 1, 4, 2, 4, 3, 1, 0. He’s had two games where he’s had “excessive turnovers.” Take a step back my guy.

His stats are better than the #1, #3, #4, and #5 PG in his class (he also plays more than them) and the #2 PG in his class averages over 3 turnovers a game, Lipsey’s at 2.5.

 

[inCyteful]

I was thinking how impressive it is that the CF powers got John Wooden to post commentary on the board.

Word is that @ZRF is pretty sure he could have gotten another 10K points out of Jabar in his career. Kareem was not always in the flow of a game correctly.

 

[inCyteful]

In the last several weeks his turnovers have been 1, 4, 2, 4, 3, 1, 0. He’s had two games where he’s had “excessive turnovers.” Take a step back my guy.

His stats are better than the #1, #3, #4, and #5 PG in his class (he also plays more than them) and the #2 PG in his class averages over 3 turnovers a game, Lipsey’s at 2.5.

Well there you go again, bringing facts and statistics to a ZRFs manhood contest.

 

[MyNameEhJeff]

Markquis Nowell, one of the best PGs in the big 12, had a stretch where he had 7, 6, 6, 5, 5 turnovers.

Jayson Tatum (All Star game MVP) had a 3 game stretch this year where he had 17 total turnovers and another 3 game stretch where he had 18 total turnovers, 9 in one game.

Lebron has had an 8 turnover and a 9 turnover game this year. Something Tamin hasn’t done this year.

MJ averaged more turnovers every year of his career than Tamin is averaging this year.

BUT! Tamin’s had 6 turnovers in back to back games. Blame the staff. Blame Tamin. Blame LeBron. True freshman Tamin Lipsey isn’t living up to ZRF’s standards - misewell throw in the towel on this season and try again next year.

 

[cyclones500]

Word is that @ZRF is pretty sure he could have gotten another 10K points out of Jabar in his career. Kareem was not always in the flow of a game correctly.

He could have reduced frequency of the skyhook and develop a 3-point shot ... to keep defenses honest.