John Deere strike imminent?

scottwv

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As a 20-something, it's amazing to me to hear about the old days where someone could go work at a factory right after high school graduation, stay in the same company for 47 years, with a spouse who stays home and two kids, and still be able to afford a house and a car and expenses for the kids - all with a pension at retirement at 65. And they'd work a solid 40 hours a week on the floor and no more.

The world has changed so much, in worker-unfriendly ways.
I grew up "in the old days" and my Dad worked at John Deere, and my mother stayed home until we were in school. But - they drove used cars, cut coupons, no big vacations, we had a land line and they wouldn't call long distance, 4 channels on over the air antenna (no fun on the days only PBS came in).

I read the average Deere worker Makes 60k a year. At that wage there are a lot of places in Iowa that one spouse could stay home with the kids if they lived frugally like we did.
 

jmax71

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There isn't much for manual welding going on, at least not at TCAO. The ROPS frames were pretty much all robotically welded. No idea what's happening at other sites since I haven't really spent a lot of time in any of the buildings down in the QC.
Des Moines Works has a large amount of manual arc welding. Some weld cells such as Sprayer Mainframes utilize a robot welding some mainframe components with the manual guys putting all together and completing manually.
Manual Arc Weld is one of the largest classifications in the factory.
 

mramseyISU

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Des Moines Works has a large amount of manual arc welding. Some weld cells such as Sprayer Mainframes utilize a robot welding some mainframe components with the manual guys putting all together and completing manually.
Manual Arc Weld is one of the largest classifications in the factory.
I guess that makes sense with their volumes. I used to do design work on Sprayer cabs but I haven't spent much time at all down at the factory.
 

BWRhasnoAC

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True. I would think once you are looked at as someone who can run John Deere, you're a made man. I do think, though, it takes a specific type of person to get to that level of achievement and that type of person isn't going to mail it in.

Sure, they aren't going to be financially responsible for each and every mishap but they could be fired at any point by the shareholders who are mostly raking in passive income which comes with it's own set of risks/benefits.

John Deere, is probably a pretty poor example to make when talking about CEOs and their responsibility. Once someone can be looked at as a viable candidate for that job in that large of a company, it's just probably really, really, unlikely they'll fail. They aren't going out and hiring someone who hasn't proven themselves in a capacity pretty close to CEO.

But yeah, if it doesn't work out, I suppose they're out of a job and still have all their money. I just don't really buy that those types of people consider that anything less than wholly embarrassing and a huge failure. The money's nice, but they will likely never get into a job like that again and anything else is a downgrade.
Lol poor poor tortured souls.
 
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clone52

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Vanguard's expense ratio for an S&P 500 ETF is 0.03%.

That's a couple of orders of magnitude less than the difference in the real return from the S&P 500 in the long term (roughly 5% to 10% depending on exactly how and when you define "long term") and the same from Social Security (which, again, U.S. bonds historically return ≤ 0% in real terms, which sucks).

Vanguard is going to charge you $71 on $10,000 invested for 10 years.

Even a 5% return nets you $5,513 after ten years.

So you're still coming out $5,442 ahead even net of fees.

If Social Security returns 0% as it normal does, you're $5,442 behind already. Increase the contribution amount and the market return, and this becomes even more crazily lopsided.

Yeah, bonds are "safer," but no investment advisor recommends them being the *only* investment vehicle throughout your working life (and they are for many Americans through payroll taxes and the SSA). If you are in this for the long haul, then short-term losses matter little. The market has always rewarded those who stick it out. Forcing the poorest among us to invest so conservatively is not actually doing them any favors. It is risk-adverse to the point of destructiveness and hurting their chance to build some wealth.

Sometimes a pennywise -- being so adverse to risk -- is ultimately many pounds foolish.

The "safer investment" argument is also overblown. The circumstances that determine real returns from stocks and bonds are not independent of each other. A situation that would crash the market to the same degree it crashed in the late 1920s and early 1930s (e.g., a MAJOR war, a huge series of bank failures, or an Argentina-style run on U.S. debt and rampant inflation, etc.) would also reduce the real return on bonds.

Let's walk through an apples-to-apples example...

$15 / hour worker at 2080 hours per year = $31,200 working from age 21 to age 65
Assume one investment strategy with a 0% rate of return = Social Security
Assume another with a 5% (minus 0.03%) investment strategy = S&P 500 index fund
Saving 12.4% of their income (which is the total Social Security contribution)

In the end, the investor at 0% has $174,096.
The investor at a little less than 5% has $612,641.

The 0% investor has enough money to cover their preretirement income for 5.6 years.
The 5% investor has enough money to cover their preretirement income essentially forever.

A 5% return on $612,641 is $30,632 -- close to but not quite enough to cover $31,200 per year. Even if they live to be 100, they would still have $545,164 left. At the 0% return, the person who only had enough for 5.6 years has already outlived their retirement savings by at least three decades.

Do you not understand how powerful compound interest is in the long term?

I ran this model out into the far future and found out the 5% person only goes into the red once they turn 142. That's much better than going into the red when they turn 71, isn't it?

You're not doing people a favor. You're barring them from accruing long-term wealth. You can dress it up as helping them however you want to, but the numbers above settle the matter.

Social Security isn't meant to be an investment, its meant to be insurance. Even if you gave the money to the people to invest, many would choose not to, then be destitute when they retire, which is a drag on the economy and society.

Just raise the SS age, raise the maximum income you pay for it and means test the benefits.
 

Sigmapolis

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To be clear, at no point in any of your posts did you note the values you were using were indexed against inflation. Does this include the returns you provided for the S&P?

So do actually have an accurate number for what SS throws off for profit or are you simply making your best guestimate?

Of course, there are TIPS which can be as a hedge against inflation.

Finally the size of the funds you cited are large but are dwarfed by the size of SS. Calipers, for example, has 1.6 million members. The adult population of the United States is 258 million. The affect of SS being invested in publicly traded companies will have affect much like 401K's did onlybthos will be on a much larger scale.


Most of these are managed by outside groups nut influenced by its membership. I belong to a pension fund and the membership restricted the management company which stocks they could invest for reasons other than economy.

I see the system you're proposing being subjected to the same pressures. How excited would Americans be about investing SS monies in Alphabet (Google), Facebook and Amazon right now? I could easily see a political party threaten a specific company by eliminating it from SS funds.

Finally, SS was never intended to be a retirement fund. Its design was to protect elderly from extreme poverty.

I went CRTL+F on my post and saw I said "real returns" four times. I was very clear that I was talking about real returns -- that is, returns after inflation, which is what "real returns" means.

Real ROI for Social Security is between 1% and 2% depending on a number of factors (e.g., what exact time period you use, which is the same parameter that determines what the real ROI of equities are going to be). Not quite zero, but it sucks. Equities are still going to be 5%+ higher in the long term, though.

Which leads to the compounding... which leads to my worker having enough wealth to their name to live into their 140s while yours has enough income to barely make it past the age of 70.

Most Americans aren't even going to understand what is going on here. If you're going to force people to save for retirement (which is at least a defensible policy) then do it right -- give them some decent returns over the course of a lifetime. The policy wonks writing about the "glory" of the SS system undoubtedly have their own 401(k) plowed hard into the market. Lots of people in SS wouldn't like the fact they are forced to buy federal debt through their payroll contributions. I doubt you'd care about their opinion, and I'm not going to care if some people don't like that the S&P 500 has those "nasty/evil/bewitching/etc." tech companies in it.

CalPERS is the largest in the U.S., but it is hardly the only public or semipublic pension system that is in the market. Even larger than CalPERS is Federal Retirement Thrift for federal employees, and it has its assets in the market. Add up the dozens of them and you're talking much larger holdings.

As others pointed out, the U.S. is an international outlier amid peers for not investing its public pension system in the market. Japan does. South Korea does. Canada does. Most European countries do. They have much better-managed systems for not being so insanely adverse to any risk. This ultimately gives a better deal for their workers for their savings, which I thought was the point of the whole exercise.
 

jbhtexas

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Below is a screen shot from the Table Builder for the CBO's Distribution of Household Income report for 2018. It shows the percentage of Federal taxes paid by income group.

So yes, Mr. JD CEO, and others in his position, get(s) a big $14 million/yr salary, but he also pays a lot of taxes and covers a significant chunk of our federal tax burden. According to the CBO report, the average tax rate for the highest income group was about 30%, so Mr. JD CEO pays about $4 million in taxes per year. If Mr. JD CEO made $1 million, somebody else would have to cover that $3.7 million in revenue...unless we could convince the Federal government to spend less...or just pile up more debt.

image001.png
 
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Sigmapolis

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Sig -
Really appreciate your insightful responses as they've gotten me to ponder what you're proposing.

I do have two questions though:
1) Doesn't the nature of SS (i.e. retired/qualified folks are ALWAYS withdrawing funds from it) almost require it to be in a bond-type conservative investment?
What I mean is while an individual's (and particularly a young individual) investment account can survive the ups/downs of the market and be better off in the long run - most financial advisors would recommend switching investments heavily towards bonds as you're nearing the age you'll actually need to use the funds; since SS is "always" needed doesn't that steer it towards bonds?

2) ETFs tracking a broader market index (S&P 500) are great, but what about the saying "more money, more problems" - I mean on the scale of SS we're talking trillions of dollars in that index - does that create any issues? Maybe it doesn't, just something I've been pondering.

(1.) Most pension systems actively calibrate their asset allocation to the demographics of their participants. IPERS does, for instance. If a fund were mostly young people (e.g., government employees in Utah, which is the youngest state), then it should be more aggressively into stocks. If a fund is mostly of older people, then it should have a more conservative asset allocation. There's no reason you couldn't do this best practice with SS. Just imagine it as a pie chart made up of a series of target-date funds reflecting its demographics.

(2.) The market cap of the S&P 500 right now is $40.3 trillion. The value of the Social Security trust fund right now is $2.91 trillion. I think the market could absorb 7.2% over time and be fine. @Althetuna is right that SS is really big, but he forgets the U.S. economy and equity markets are even bigger.

Social Security isn't meant to be an investment, its meant to be insurance. Even if you gave the money to the people to invest, many would choose not to, then be destitute when they retire, which is a drag on the economy and society.

Just raise the SS age, raise the maximum income you pay for it and means test the benefits.

You do realize insurance companies invest your premiums in the market, right?

They do this thinking long-term market returns will cover promised benefits someday?

And then they pocket the difference? This whole system is how they make money?

I have not gone so radical as to say abolish the payroll tax. Just asking for it to be invested right.
 

bozclone

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AuH2O

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I went CRTL+F on my post and saw I said "real returns" four times. I was very clear that I was talking about real returns -- that is, returns after inflation, which is what "real returns" means.

Real ROI for Social Security is between 1% and 2% depending on a number of factors (e.g., what exact time period you use, which is the same parameter that determines what the real ROI of equities are going to be). Not quite zero, but it sucks. Equities are still going to be 5%+ higher in the long term, though.

Which leads to the compounding... which leads to my worker having enough wealth to their name to live into their 140s while yours has enough income to barely make it past the age of 70.

Most Americans aren't even going to understand what is going on here. If you're going to force people to save for retirement (which is at least a defensible policy) then do it right -- give them some decent returns over the course of a lifetime. The policy wonks writing about the "glory" of the SS system undoubtedly have their own 401(k) plowed hard into the market. Lots of people in SS wouldn't like the fact they are forced to buy federal debt through their payroll contributions. I doubt you'd care about their opinion, and I'm not going to care if some people don't like that the S&P 500 has those "nasty/evil/bewitching/etc." tech companies in it.

CalPERS is the largest in the U.S., but it is hardly the only public or semipublic pension system that is in the market. Even larger than CalPERS is Federal Retirement Thrift for federal employees, and it has its assets in the market. Add up the dozens of them and you're talking much larger holdings.

As others pointed out, the U.S. is an international outlier amid peers for not investing its public pension system in the market. Japan does. South Korea does. Canada does. Most European countries do. They have much better-managed systems for not being so insanely adverse to any risk. This ultimately gives a better deal for their workers for their savings, which I thought was the point of the whole exercise.
Rather than redirecting SS investment, I think a better conclusion here is that a far more efficient plan would be to eliminate SS and boost taxes somewhere in that gap of ROI between SS and a modest S&P 500 fund investment. Then take that money and give to people that really need it through social programs.
 

ISUCyclones2015

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What tf is your problem? Why do you assume everything is a horrible conspiracy to make employees live in some dystopian nightmare? What on earth has made you such a miserable human being that has to hate on everything?

Our warehouse IS climate controlled, we have TWO people in an 8000 sqft warehouse and we run the a/c all summer. And 90% of the boxes weigh <15 lbs. They shift about 10 boxes a day each. They do inspect paperwork, that takes most of the time. We have a woman with a bad leg in her 50s and she is MORE than physically capable.

PM me if you want and you can come on a tour. The whole world isnt some dickensian nightmare. Get some help.
Less than 15 pounds? Might I interest you in a robot that doesn’t take off work and will always show up on time and doesn’t need to get paid?
745EBF73-A1A6-4E85-91A6-8E258CB6513D.jpeg
 
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CascadeClone

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Less than 15 pounds? Might I interest you in a robot that doesn’t take off work and will always show up on time and doesn’t need to get paid?
View attachment 90845
Too expensive/ bad roi, not adaptable enough, and cant think thru paperwork.

Im done engaging w you. I hope you are a troll, for your sake. Otherwise, go be miserable the rest of your unhappy incel life.
 

ISUCyclones2015

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Too expensive/ bad roi, not adaptable enough, and cant think thru paperwork.

Im done engaging w you. I hope you are a troll, for your sake. Otherwise, go be miserable the rest of your unhappy incel life.

Do we need to hug this out?

giphy.gif
 

JP4CY

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I grew up "in the old days" and my Dad worked at John Deere, and my mother stayed home until we were in school. But - they drove used cars, cut coupons, no big vacations, we had a land line and they wouldn't call long distance, 4 channels on over the air antenna (no fun on the days only PBS came in).

I read the average Deere worker Makes 60k a year. At that wage there are a lot of places in Iowa that one spouse could stay home with the kids if they lived frugally like we did.
It would maybe be possible in small towns but the housing market in Ankeny is insane. I'm not saying Zillow is the gospel but it has 2011 Oct average home value at $182k and 2021 Aug average home value at $285k.
 
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VeloClone

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I haven't read this entire thread, but what everyone who is lambasting Social Security (rightfully so) is failing to account for is how do you make the transition away from it without leaving countless retirees woefully exposed in the process. The structural problem with Social Security occurred at its creation. Instead of making it more like a pension or retirement savings system for those who paid into it, it was created as a net for all even those who had barely paid into it at all. The very first Social Security retiree paid in $24.75 total over the course of three years. Her very first monthly check in January of 1940 was $22.54, almost the sum total of her contributions. She lived to be 100 and pocketed a total benefit of $22,888.92. Social Security has been playing catch up ever since.

There are flaws with it but how do you transition from a system where today's payers fund today's retirees to a system more based on your payments fund your future retirement without drastically harming large groups of people during the transition? All the money paid in by this year's and next year's retirees was spent long ago as disbursements to yesteryear's retirees. Their money is gone.
 

Sigmapolis

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I haven't read this entire thread, but what everyone who is lambasting Social Security (rightfully so) is failing to account for is how do you make the transition away from it without leaving countless retirees woefully exposed in the process. The structural problem with Social Security occurred at its creation. Instead of making it more like a pension or retirement savings system for those who paid into it, it was created as a net for all even those who had barely paid into it at all. The very first Social Security retiree paid in $24.75 total over the course of three years. Her very first monthly check in January of 1940 was $22.54, almost the sum total of her contributions. She lived to be 100 and pocketed a total benefit of $22,888.92. Social Security has been playing catch up ever since.

There are flaws with it but how do you transition from a system where today's payers fund today's retirees to a system more based on your payments fund your future retirement without drastically harming large groups of people during the transition? All the money paid in by this year's and next year's retirees was spent long ago as disbursements to yesteryear's retirees. Their money is gone.

Gee, the system was terribly mismanaged for decades, severely crimping our current options? Whodathunkit.

You won't have a hard time convincing me that FDR and his congressional backers in the 1930s made some questionable decisions the have ****** us in various ways in the long term.

There would be a way to do it, though. Wouldn't be easy or cheap, but stabilizing the finances of the system won't be easy or cheap at this point either, so something's gonna give here soon.
 

VeloClone

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Gee, the system was terribly mismanaged for decades, severely crimping our current options? Whodathunkit.

You won't have a hard time convincing me that FDR and his congressional backers in the 1930s made some questionable decisions the have ****** us in various ways in the long term.

There would be a way to do it, though. Wouldn't be easy or cheap, but stabilizing the finances of the system won't be easy or cheap at this point either, so something's gonna give here soon.
Supplementing what people are paying in to cover shortages on benefits in the short term "won't be easy or cheap". Covering the entire benefit for people who are retiring now or retire in the next 20-30 years while the transition is in process will be prohibitively expensive.

Americans seem to think that we can just continue to borrow ourselves into the standard of living we expect as a nation. That is an unsustainable road that we are way too far down. The scariest thing about it is that neither major party seems to think that continued large deficit spending is a serious concern - or at least their budget actions when they have the majority say they don't think it is a concern worth addressing.
 

Sigmapolis

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Supplementing what people are paying in to cover shortages on benefits in the short term "won't be easy or cheap". Covering the entire benefit for people who are retiring now or retire in the next 20-30 years while the transition is in process will be prohibitively expensive.

Americans seem to think that we can just continue to borrow ourselves into the standard of living we expect as a nation. That is an unsustainable road that we are way too far down. The scariest thing about it is that neither major party seems to think that continued large deficit spending is a serious concern - or at least their budget actions when they have the majority say they don't think it is a concern worth addressing.

I could put together a transition plan with some specifics if you like.

Would be expensive, sure, could debate if "prohibitively" so or not compared to the current system.

But I agree with your macro point there. I've just kind of come to accept the flood is coming.

Lots of people out there who are just going to have to get used to the idea, sooner or later, that their retirement income, their standard of living after taxes, or their real investment returns are going to be less than they expected them to be. We've collectively promised too much to these groups and all of them are going to have to take a haircut at some point. Not sure when or exactly how, but that will be the main issue in our governing once we finally "get real" and off stupid culture war nonsense and start to run the railroad again.
 

I@ST1

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Congress should just put a ban on how many kids one can have. Think of all the money people would save for retirement…. Smaller/cheaper houses, smaller vehicles… spend less on food, daycare, and vacations… would only have to buy 3 season tickets and not 5.

Add it up… with investing all of that in the market compounded year after year. You could retire pretty well…
 
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dosry5

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Congress should just put a ban on how many kids one can have. Think of all the money people would save for retirement…. Smaller/cheaper houses, smaller vehicles… spend less on food, daycare, and vacations… would only have to buy 3 season tickets and not 5.

Add it up… with investing all of that in the market compounded year after year. You could retire pretty well…
Seems like a great idea Chairman Mao…