Who is ISU true comp in Big 12 MBB and just who do we think we are?

[davegilbertson]

This thought has been developing for some time for me. I've come to the conclusion that fan expectations and historical perception of Iowa State men's basketball are skewed.

Not throwing stones. I myself am guilty and if you'd had asked me I would've said we're the 3rd or 4th most 'storied' or 'best' job in Big12 MBB. I'm not so sure about that though.

Team	Conference record .500+ (last 25 yrs)	NCAA app (24 yr tot^)	Tournament rd apps & Championships
Kansas	100% – (25 of 25)	24 ^	Nat champ, Nat runner up (2), F4 (5), E8 (5), S16 (12), 2R (21), 1R(24^)
Texas	76% – (19/25)	20 ^	F4 (1), E8 (3), S16 (6), 2R (11), 1R (20^)
Oklahoma	68% – (17/25)	18 ^	F4 (2), E8 (4), S16 (6), 2R (12), 1R(18^)
West Virginia	80% – (20/25)*	13 ^	F4 (1), E8 (2), S16 (8), 2R (10), 1R(13^)
Oklahoma State	52% – (13/25)	15	F4 (1), E8 (2), S16 (3), 2R (11), 1R(15)
Baylor	48% – (12/25)	9 ^	Nat champ (1), F4 (1), E8 (4), S16 (5), 2R (5), 1R(9^)
Iowa State	44% – (11/25)	11	E8 (1), S16 (4), 2R (8), 1R(11)
Texas Tech	40% – (10/25)	8 ^	Nat runner up (1), F4 (1), E8 (2), S16 (3), 2R (5), 1R(8^)
Kansas State	36% – (9/25)	9	E8 (2), S16 (2), 2R (5), 1R(9)
TCU	28% – (7/25)**	2	1R(2)

* - WVU joined B12 in 2012/13 (Big East prior)
** - TCU joined B12 in 2012/13 (WAC, CUSA and MWC prior)
^ - 2019-20 season cancelled due to COVID 19 (likely NCAA app .500+ conference record)


Last 9 Seasons (true sample size of round robin with additions of TCU and West Virginia)
Will add this later as this obviously creates a slight difference in sample size and recency, but truthfully, I think WVU has proven to be in the top tier of the league or top of the second tier both in B12 and prior in Big East and TCU doesn't change much in the rankings.

OSU/Texas dip since early Travis Ford era & early Shaka struggles may be the biggest impact to updating to the last 9 seasons. With Texas hiring Beard though I think the most adjustment here would be OSU dropping below ISU with TTU leap frogging ISU (E8 and Nat runner up is no small feat).

If anything, WVU being added has possibly had a negative impact on ISU while TCU's has been null across the board. WVU has taken on the consistent challenger identity that ISU was beginning to carve out in the latter days of Big 8 and early Big 12 years + Fred.

I was surprised by these findings and we're much more in the ranks of OSU, TTU and KSU than I'd like to admit historically. With fewer deep runs than our close comps.

Happy Thursday!!
If I still drank I would say that we could all benefit from returning (just a bit) to jovial losers, who are faithful to our teams no matter what. MBB does not have the history of FB, but we're not historically a basketball school as much as I previously thought.

 

[Cyclonepride]

I would have guessed higher as well, and I think that has something to do with the passion of the fan base, and the potential that maybe just missed here and there.

Overall, I still think, from a national perspective, we're probably considered to be in the top half of the conference (or at least mid-pack) for basketball prestige.

 

[Rogue52]

It won't really change your chart (since it is all KU), but I think conference championships should be a measuring stick. NCAA appearances would be the other big key for me, but your chart captures that.

 

[davegilbertson]

It won't really change your chart (since it is all KU), but I think conference championships should be a measuring stick. NCAA appearances would be the other big key for me, but your chart captures that.

Agreed on conference championships and ultimately Big 12 tournament but felt that *ultimately* it doesn't matter, and had some recency bias towards ISU success as well (also only wanted to capture so much)

 

[cycloneML]

Prohm skewed your numbers above

 

[davegilbertson]

Prohm skewed your numbers above

Sure. Same as Fred, Eddie Sutton and Roy Williams. (if we look at last 9 years Prohm would have an even greater impact)

 

[coolerifyoudid]

I would have thought we'd have been closer to 5th, but there isn't a lot separating 5-7. ISU has more tourney appearances than Baylor, but Baylor has made deeper runs. ISU has more sweet 16 appearances than Okie State, but OSU has a FF and an extra Elite 8 on us.

Texas, despite having 9 more appearances in the Dance only have two more Sweet 16s to show for it.

 

[davegilbertson]

I would have guessed higher as well, and I think that has something to do with the passion of the fan base, and the potential that maybe just missed here and there.

Overall, I still think, from a national perspective, we're probably considered to be in the top half of the conference (or at least mid-pack) for basketball prestige.

Agree w/ this and I think this lends itself to the notion that we need to find our Campbell. It looked like Fred was that guy. The atmosphere and support are real and that's what attracted Campbell, but unlike football pre Campbell, our near misses seem to have created heightened expectations.

 

[Cyclonepride]

Agree w/ this and I think this lends itself to the notion that we need to find our Campbell. It looked like Fred was that guy. The atmosphere and support are real and that's what attracted Campbell, but unlike football pre Campbell, our near misses seem to have created heightened expectations.

Hopefully TJ can be that guy. I think he can, and I like what he's saying and doing so far.

 

[DurangoCy]

The expectations are that the years Gregg McDermott and Steve Prohm spent at the helm are the floor of the program and the years Larry and Fred had things rolling is the ceiling. We're not Kansas, but we should be a hell of a lot closer to them vs. going 0-fer.

 

[davegilbertson]

The expectations are that the years Gregg McDermott and Steve Prohm spent at the helm are the floor of the program and the years Larry and Fred had things rolling is the ceiling. We're not Kansas, but we should be a hell of a lot closer to them vs. going 0-fer.

This is the part that led to looking at the numbers. You just cited 10 of the last 20 years of the program, that's not an aberration.

And this is a topic for another time, but for as much success as Larry brought, I place a lot more blame on him for how he failed his players, the university, and the subsequent digging ourselves out of a ditch than I do Morgan or even McDermott for that matter.

I forgive him, love the recovery story and he'll always have a soft spot in my heart, but to me, what he did while he was here is not too far off from a coach running a shady operation that puts a stain on the institution and a huge step back.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

The last time the "are we really a BB school" head scratching was put forth was during the GMAC year's when it became painfully obvious he wasn't going to succeed. Well that fell flat real fast because their starting premise was based against the long standing traditions of Duke and KU. Well, with that as the mark.........%99 of all universities aren't basketball schools. Hence ending the debate.

The expectations at ISU should be what was expected of Steve Prohm.....period. LE's best years and Prohm's worst year are the outliers. However Johnny, Tim, LE, Fred and even Prohm proved we are closer to a top tier Big 12 team than the opposite. The only aberration in the last two decades has been Greg McDermott. Heck Wayne made post season two of his three years and this sight was started to get rid of him. So obviously someone here on CF thinks we are better than not.......right?

 

[CyLyte2]

The last time the "are we really a BB school" head scratching was put forth was during the GMAC year's when it became painfully obvious he wasn't going to succeed. Well that fell flat real fast because their starting premise was based against the long standing traditions of Duke and KU. Well, with that as the mark.........%99 of all universities aren't basketball schools. Hence ending the debate.

The expectations at ISU should be what was expected of Steve Prohm.....period. LE's best years and Prohm's worst year are the outliers. However Johnny, Tim, LE, Fred and even Prohm proved we are closer to a top tier Big 12 team than the opposite. The only aberration in the last two decades has been Greg McDermott. Heck Wayne made post season two of his three years and this sight was started to get rid of him. So obviously someone here on CF thinks we are better than not.......right?

Prohm couldn't carry McDermott's jock. If McDermott had started out with the talent Prohm did he'd still be the coach here.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

Prohm couldn't carry McDermott's jock. If McDermott had started out with the talent Prohm did he'd still be the coach here.

What, try and script Monte and Co. about the nuances of 3,456 offensive sets? That would have gone over like a lead balloon. And having admitted not knowing what type of player to recruit to ISU you think that magically with the Marcus Brister's and Clayton Vette's of the world he would have maintained what Fred's group did? Please.....they may not have put up a goose egg like this year, but to think he would still be coach is the same thinking by those that asked 15 years ago................"are we really a basketball school".

 

[CyLyte2]

What, try and script Monte and Co. about the nuances of 3,456 offensive sets? That would have gone over like a lead balloon. And having admitted not knowing what type of player to recruit to ISU you think that magically with the Marcus Brister's and Clayton Vette's of the world he would have maintained what Fred's group did? Please.....they may not have put up a goose egg like this year, but to think he would still be coach is the same thinking by those that asked 15 years ago................"are we really a basketball school".

Fred had more plays than McDermott.

 

[ISUTex]

This thought has been developing for some time for me. I've come to the conclusion that fan expectations and historical perception of Iowa State men's basketball are skewed.

Not throwing stones. I myself am guilty and if you'd had asked me I would've said we're the 3rd or 4th most 'storied' or 'best' job in Big12 MBB. I'm not so sure about that though.

Team	Conference record .500+ (last 25 yrs)	NCAA app (24 yr tot^)	Tournament rd apps & Championships
Kansas	100% – (25 of 25)	24 ^	Nat champ, Nat runner up (2), F4 (5), E8 (5), S16 (12), 2R (21), 1R(24^)
Texas	76% – (19/25)	20 ^	F4 (1), E8 (3), S16 (6), 2R (11), 1R (20^)
Oklahoma	68% – (17/25)	18 ^	F4 (2), E8 (4), S16 (6), 2R (12), 1R(18^)
West Virginia	80% – (20/25)*	13 ^	F4 (1), E8 (2), S16 (8), 2R (10), 1R(13^)
Oklahoma State	52% – (13/25)	15	F4 (1), E8 (2), S16 (3), 2R (11), 1R(15)
Baylor	48% – (12/25)	9 ^	Nat champ^^ (), Nat runner up^^ (), F4 (1), E8 (4), S16 (5), 2R (5), 1R(9^)
Iowa State	44% – (11/25)	11	E8 (1), S16 (4), 2R (8), 1R(11)
Texas Tech	40% – (10/25)	8 ^	Nat runner up (1), F4 (1), E8 (2), S16 (3), 2R (5), 1R(8^)
Kansas State	36% – (9/25)	9	E8 (2), S16 (2), 2R (5), 1R(9)
TCU	28% – (7/25)**	2	1R(2)

* - WVU joined B12 in 2012/13 (Big East prior)
** - TCU joined B12 in 2012/13 (WAC, CUSA and MWC prior)
^ - 2019-20 season cancelled due to COVID 19 (likely NCAA app .500+ conference record)
^^ – 2020-21 season still active

Last 9 Seasons (true sample size of round robin with additions of TCU and West Virginia)
Will add this later as this obviously creates a slight difference in sample size and recency, but truthfully, I think WVU has proven to be in the top tier of the league or top of the second tier both in B12 and prior in Big East and TCU doesn't change much in the rankings.

OSU/Texas dip since early Travis Ford era & early Shaka struggles may be the biggest impact to updating to the last 9 seasons. With Texas hiring Beard though I think the most adjustment here would be OSU dropping below ISU with TTU leap frogging ISU (E8 and Nat runner up is no small feat).

If anything, WVU being added has possibly had a negative impact on ISU while TCU's has been null across the board. WVU has taken on the consistent challenger identity that ISU was beginning to carve out in the latter days of Big 8 and early Big 12 years + Fred.

I was surprised by these findings and we're much more in the ranks of OSU, TTU and KSU than I'd like to admit historically. With fewer deep runs than our close comps.

Happy Thursday!!
If I still drank I would say that we could all benefit from returning (just a bit) to jovial losers, who are faithful to our teams no matter what. MBB does not have the history of FB, but we're not historically a basketball school as much as I previously thought.

Watch home games with regular crowds. Hilton is up there behind KU's gym. That means a lot as well.

 

[CyBobby]

Agree w/ this and I think this lends itself to the notion that we need to find our Campbell. It looked like Fred was that guy. The atmosphere and support are real and that's what attracted Campbell, but unlike football pre Campbell, our near misses seem to have created heightened expectations.

"Heightened Expectations"....I AGREE at ISU we are never going to be Baylor and Scott Drew.....or Tx Tech and Chris Beard....

 

[Die4Cy]

Top two Big 12 fan base, middle of the road performance as a program. Just as it was in football for a very long time, ISU fans level of support is not as tied to wins and losses as much as it is other places. No one really knows why that is.

 

[AlaCyclone]

It's a mixed bag with ISU, especially when determining the place of History in the sport.

KU is clearly #1 in the Big Xii, but there is a solid battle for 2nd, 3rd, 4th programs in the conference. Eras are important, but the farther back one goes, the less important it becomes. For example, the fact that Iowa State went to the 1944 Final Four has 0 impact on today's program. It's just a dusty banner. Even for old timers like me who went to Iowa State in the Big 8 days, Big 8 stuff is less and less important (Orr and Floyd Eras).

As for Iowa State in the Big Xii, they bring the most passionate fan base in Men's Basketball after KU. They have the 2nd largest arena in the conference, which they fill regularly, the have won more Big Xii Tournaments than any program not named KU and are the last and only other Big Xii program to win back to back outright Big Xii Regular Season titles (2000 and 2001) and have more wins @ KU during the Big Xii Era than any other team (unless that has changed recently).

Iowa State's main problem during the post Johnny Orr Era (which resurrected ISU Men's Basketball) has been a smooth transition between the successful coaches. Matters not to me whether ISU currently ranked 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even lower, because they can easily take and hold the #2 spot with the right coach.

Just my onion.

 

[Yellow Snow]

It's a mixed bag with ISU, especially when determining the place of History in the sport.

KU is clearly #1 in the Big Xii, but there is a solid battle for 2nd, 3rd, 4th programs in the conference. Eras are important, but the farther back one goes, the less important it becomes. For example, the fact that Iowa State went to the 1944 Final Four has 0 impact on today's program. It's just a dusty banner. Even for old timers like me who went to Iowa State in the Big 8 days, Big 8 stuff is less and less important (Orr and Floyd Eras).

As for Iowa State in the Big Xii, they bring the most passionate fan base in Men's Basketball after KU. They have the 2nd largest arena in the conference, which they fill regularly, the have won more Big Xii Tournaments than any program not named KU and are the last and only other Big Xii program to win back to back outright Big Xii Regular Season titles (2000 and 2001) and has more wins @ KU during the Big Xii Era than any other team (unless that has changed recently).

Iowa State's main problem during the post Johnny Orr Era (which resurrected ISU Men's Basketball) has been a smooth transition between the successful coaches. Matters not to me whether ISU currently ranked 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even lower, because they can easily take and hold the #2 spot with the right coach.

Just my onion.

I agree with your onion. Very wise.