NBA: Should LeBron James be compared to Michael Jordan?

[HFCS]

At this stage of their careers, yes. He has done slightly less himself with much less for teammates.

It is slightly his doing as he decided to team up with two players who are just absolutely terrible for him. Dwade and Bosh are so much worse than they were supposed to be it isn't even funny. Wade has been washed up all year, and can't even shoot a mid range jumper. His entire offensive strategy is to slam his body into defenders in a 1 on 2 situation and hope to be fouled while throwing the ball up and hoping to make the bucket too. Not to mention Dwade and Bosh are TERRIBLE at hustling and team basketball and give up & fold at the slightest bit of adversity.

Bosh is afraid to play inside and only ever wants to take jumpers, which he is not very good at in the first place. Both players are high volume scorers. LeBron would do better with a real post presence, a couple three point shooters, and a guy who was automatic from mid range.

It should go without saying that the years in Cleveland were even worse. LeBron took this starting 5 to the NBA finals early in his career:

PG Eric Snow
SG Larry Hughes
SF LBJ
PF Drew Gooden
C Ilgauskas

^^^That is unbelievable.

Jordan had more championships at this point, but his front office was so much better at giving him players that fit how he played and had great chemistry. Jordan had Pippen his whole career, and Rodman for the last few championships plus outstanding role players at all times.

Jordan also didn't have the ridiculous, unprecedented pressure that LeBron was forced under. People expected the '94 Bulls when he was in Cleveland and the talent just wasn't there. When he did all that stupid **** and went to Miami the first year it was even worse. Jordan didn't have to play his entire career in the shadow of the GOAT.


I'm not sure I believe what I just wrote, but I think I gave a decent devils advocate.

A lot of this makes sense, and as a Bulls fan from Chicago I'm clearly biased, but it doesn't explain why on LeBron's most talented team ever (a team as talented as many Bulls teams), he would have the largest scoring average drop in an NBA finals history. That's by far the biggest difference.

Jordan sets the playoffs bar CRAAAAAAAAAZY high. If we're talking regular season or career stats it's a discussion. If we're talking playoffs and finals Jordan is the most dominant ever by far. It could be decades before someone can touch his playoffs scoring, even a very young natural scorer like Durant already has no chance at it.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Good devils advocate Rhoadhouse. I would maybe add a Phil Jackson vs. Spoelstra in there as well.

yeah that is a major thing as well.

Another thing I might add is that Jordan took about 25 shots per game in in the finals while LBJ took about 8 shots less than that last post season. He is all about making the smart basketball play and being efficient, getting his team mates wide open looks and opportunities. Creating plays many ways. If his teammates don't do their jobs, he looks very bad because he isn't dominating the way he should. Is that fair? Is that a good strategy? I'm not sure. I don know I have seen LeBron carry the team getting Wade and Bosh wide open shots and they just brick them over and over and over. Even Ray Allen started slow this post season. Luckily Mike Miller came in and is shooting really really well.

 

[brett108]

See, there is no way that is true and there is no way LeBron can win this argument, because he is fighting against a legend and not a real man. Nobody sees MJ as human, and nothing LBJ does could compare.

MJ went through the same thing with Magic and Bird, and they likely went through the same thing with Russell and Chamberlain.

Here is my problem. When the game was on the line, who was taking the shots for the Bulls? MJ was. Can the same be said for your boy Lebron? I have never seen a player who was considered the best of his craft defer more than Lebron has. I am sorry, this facilitator stuff is just BS. He acts like he doesn't want the shot, because he knows what happens if he fails to convert. True greats don't care about failing in their craft. They go out there and expect to win. Lebron truly plays like he doesn't want to lose. There is a difference.

 

[HFCS]

Good devils advocate Rhoadhouse. I would maybe add a Phil Jackson vs. Spoelstra in there as well.

Spo has to be the most polarized opinions coach ever. I tend to strongly agree with you here, but he got lots of COTY votes.

It also gets into the issue of LeBron/Wade/Bosh effectively being associate GMs in colluding to go to the same team through free agency after faux shopping themselves around to many teams after they'd already come to an agreement, that's a boatload of cash to commit to three players and they made it happen together. Obviously LeBron was a can't-miss any team would have done anything for, but the whole "play with my buddies" approach as opposed to more traditional free agency and talent development is up in the air depending on how this series and off season goes.

 

[BallSoHard4Cy]

Winning is the only thing you can compare them in. LeBron is having a pretty bad Finals so far... therefore would mean he's been bad in 3/4 of his 4 Finals appearances. Micheal was bad in 0/6. So when it matters most Michael>LeBron.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

A lot of this makes sense, and as a Bulls fan from Chicago I'm clearly biased, but it doesn't explain why on LeBron's most talented team ever (a team as talented as many Bulls teams), he would have the largest scoring average drop in an NBA finals history. That's by far the biggest difference.

Jordan sets the playoffs bar CRAAAAAAAAAZY high. If we're talking regular season or career stats it's a discussion. If we're talking playoffs and finals Jordan is the most dominant ever by far. It could be decades before someone can touch his playoffs scoring, even a very young natural scorer like Durant already has no chance at it.

Stats:

Lebron 47.3% FG%
8.6 RB
6.7 Assists
1.7 steals
.9 blocks
28 PPG
20.2 shots per game


Jordan
48.7% FG%
5.7 assists
6.4 rebound
2.1 steals
.88 blocks
33.4 blocks per game
25 shots per game

Stats don't look all that much different, and LeBron still has a long, long time left in his prime to improve them. Especially his FG%.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Spo has to be the most polarized opinions coach ever. I tend to strongly agree with you here, but he got lots of COTY votes.

It also gets into the issue of LeBron/Wade/Bosh effectively being associate GMs in colluding to go to the same team through free agency after faux shopping themselves around to many teams after they'd already come to an agreement, that's a boatload of cash to commit to three players and they made it happen together. Obviously LeBron was a can't-miss any team would have done anything for, but the whole "play with my buddies" approach as opposed to more traditional free agency and talent development is up in the air depending on how this series and off season goes.

Spo is a smart guy who is just starting his career. Phil is the GOAT. He has 11 rings with three 3-peats. He is the ultimate glue for a team of superstars and personalities. If there is anything Spo doesn't have, it is the ability to get the players to play hard and as a team.

It doesn't matter how it goes IMO, it is bad. Wade and Bosh may be the worst thing to ever happen to LeBron and he can still win back to back titles in spite of it.

Think about it, Bosh is a glorified spot up shooter who doesn't rebound or play defense well. He makes what, 16 million a year?

Dwade doesn't play well without the ball and lives off of inefficient shots. He can't spot up from past 16 or 17 feet and he doesn't play defense most of the time even though he can be a terrific defender if he tries. Not being THE guy removes most of his effectiveness as a player. He makes about the same as Bosh.

Zadrunas Ilgauskus was a much better player for LeBron than Bosh ever will be. He was straight cash from 15-20 feet. Every. Single. Time. So was Verejoa. And those guys are making pennies.

 

[DistrictCyclone]

Stats:

Lebron 47.3% FG%
8.6 RB
6.7 Assists
1.7 steals
.9 blocks
28 PPG
20.2 shots per game


Jordan
48.7% FG%
5.7 assists
6.4 rebound
2.1 steals
.88 blocks
33.4 blocks per game
25 shots per game

Stats don't look all that much different, and LeBron still has a long, long time left in his prime to improve them. Especially his FG%.

Wow! :wink:

 

[CycloneRulzzz]

MJ in finals 6 for 6, 6 MVPS! That pretty much says it all.

 

[Cyclonesince78]

You do realize that it's possible to compare dissimilar objects, right? I could compare LeBron James to a lemon juicer if I wanted to. Your question is confusing.

You're right. And one would probably have a better argument comparing him to a lemon juicer than to MJ.

 

[HFCS]

Stats:

Lebron 47.3% FG%
8.6 RB
6.7 Assists
1.7 steals
.9 blocks
28 PPG
20.2 shots per game


Jordan
48.7% FG%
5.7 assists
6.4 rebound
2.1 steals
.88 blocks
33.4 blocks per game
25 shots per game

Stats don't look all that much different, and LeBron still has a long, long time left in his prime to improve them. Especially his FG%.

Role players can rebound, sometimes at an insane clip. Role players can't score 4 points more per playoff game than any other human to ever play in the NBA.

I don't think LeBron is a "choke artist", but he did have an NBA Finals where he choked on a statistically historic level. Then you're comparing him to guy who was nails in college winning, nails on an amateur olympic team winning and nails in all six nba finals scoring 22 or more every single game.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Winning is the only thing you can compare them in. LeBron is having a pretty bad Finals so far... therefore would mean he's been bad in 3/4 of his 4 Finals appearances. Micheal was bad in 0/6. So when it matters most Michael>LeBron.

Of all the arguments you could possibly make, this is the worst one. Situations are not equal. Talent around him was not equal. Pressure was not equal. Media scrutiny was not equal. Playing styles are not equal. Number of finals appearances and timing in their careers is not and will not be equal.

 

[Cyclonesince78]

Can anyone see Lebron doing this in the NBA finals? No way [video=youtube;QhjGINgNfoY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhjGINgNfoY[/video]

 

[Clones21]

Of all the arguments you could possibly make, this is the worst one. Situations are not equal. Talent around him was not equal. Pressure was not equal. Media scrutiny was not equal. Playing styles are not equal. Number of finals appearances and timing in their careers is not and will not be equal.

So...basically what it comes down to is MJ>LeBron. Lets all be honest here.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Role players can rebound, sometimes at an insane clip. Role players can't score 4 points more per playoff game than any other human to ever play in the NBA.

I don't think LeBron is a "choke artist", but he did have an NBA Finals where he choked on a statistically historic level. Then you're comparing him to guy who was nails in college winning, nails on an amateur olympic team winning and nails in all six nba finals scoring 22 or more every single game.

But you realize that he takes more shots, right? Their FG%s are almost identical. LeBron has more assists.

Why is James penalized for bad teams and great shot selection? For creating wide open shots for his teammates?

1.39 points per shot for james, vs 1.34 points per shot for MJ.

Should he make the unintelligent basketball play to force a shot up if it drives his PPG up?

LeBron could put up 30 PPG if he wanted, don't kid yourself.

 

[Clones21]

But you realize that he takes more shots, right? Their FG%s are almost identical. LeBron has more assists.

Why is James penalized for bad teams and great shot selection? For creating wide open shots for his teammates?

1.39 points per shot for james, vs 1.34 points per shot for MJ.

Should he make the unintelligent basketball play to force a shot up if it drives his PPG up?

LeBron could put up 30 PPG if he wanted, don't kid yourself.

And personally I think LeBron is stupid for not scoring more. Yes, I said it.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

So...basically what it comes down to is MJ>LeBron. Lets all be honest here.

I just want a fair discussion. LeBron has a lot more to do to catch up to Jordan, but Jordan is already done and James is an athletic freak that will be able to play much better than Jordan could later in his career. James has 7 years left of elite ball IMO, at least. He has a very good chance to get the same amount of rings as Jordan and his stats are all better than MJ except PPG.

Just make it a fair fight when arguing and don't just say "MJ is a legend he never ever played a bad game ever end of story"

Make reasonable arguments, because there are a ton of them out there.

 

[HFCS]

It doesn't matter how it goes IMO, it is bad. Wade and Bosh may be the worst thing to ever happen to LeBron and he can still win back to back titles in spite of it.

Think about it, Bosh is a glorified spot up shooter who doesn't rebound or play defense well. He makes what, 16 million a year?

Dwade doesn't play well without the ball and lives off of inefficient shots. He can't spot up from past 16 or 17 feet and he doesn't play defense most of the time even though he can be a terrific defender if he tries. Not being THE guy removes most of his effectiveness as a player. He makes about the same as Bosh.

Zadrunas Ilgauskus was a much better player for LeBron than Bosh ever will be. He was straight cash from 15-20 feet. Every. Single. Time. So was Verejoa. And those guys are making pennies.

The unique thing to this situation is, LeBron actually is responsible for his key surrounding players making the huge bucks. Usually a player has little to no fault in surrounding personnel, but here the players packaged themselves as a deal.

Could anyone really look at the last few Bulls teams records and defense and think they wouldn't have at least 2 of the last 3 titles with LeBron and Thibs? They had boatloads of space. It's not like this Big 3 thing was his only option to join a winner, it was his choice so Bosh and Bosh's $ is on him. There were plenty of non-3-max-free-agent situations he could have done as well or better in.

 

[Rhoadhoused]

Can anyone see Lebron doing this in the NBA finals? No way
I think the Eastern Conference finals is pretty close:

[video=youtube;qhiY3jVoAuM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhiY3jVoAuM[/video]

 

[HFCS]

But you realize that he takes more shots, right? Their FG%s are almost identical. LeBron has more assists.

Why is James penalized for bad teams and great shot selection? For creating wide open shots for his teammates?

1.39 points per shot for james, vs 1.34 points per shot for MJ.

Should he make the unintelligent basketball play to force a shot up if it drives his PPG up?

LeBron could put up 30 PPG if he wanted, don't kid yourself.

I watched the games and I know not all the shots matter the same. I don't think LeBron could average over 33 ppg career playoff average because nobody else in history comes close to it, he's an inferior scorer than MJ. Between the ears counts.