MBB talent compared to other Big 12 teams

[Cyclonestate78]

It goes to show how far our program sunk under Gmac, when we have the most loaded team we've had in years, and it puts us about middle of the pack in the conference.....and that is coming from people that actually know about the transfers. Fans from other schools will likely have us pegged no better than 7th or 8th.

Just remember where everyone had ISU pegged in 2000. The Big XII coaches picked ISU to finish 6th and the Big XII media picked ISU to finish 7th. At the end of the season ISU finished 14-2 in the conference and 32-5 overall. The coaches polled ranked ISU 3rd in the country and the AP poll had us ranked 6th. Enough said.

 

[rholtgraves]

I know its a lot of new faces, but its not like a normal class of new faces. These guys have all been playing together for the last year, more than just a summer. So the fact that they are new faces has little to do with it in my opinion. Babb and Allen have played in venues that are comparable to anything they will face on the road this year.
Its a big talent upgrade on paper, I am having a hard time tempering my expectations.

True, even White who hasn't played college bball yet is older and more mature, plus he seems extremely motivated. When you combine the kind of talent Royce has with motivation it is a dangerous combination. Babb, Allen and Booker are all experienced college bball players who are hungry to prove what they can do. it is not the same as having all freshman coming in next year.

Plus Scotty is a senior. Ejim, who had a very strong freshman year, and he will most likely improve a lot from freshman to sophomore. Our two freshman seem like they are quality players who can at least contribute off the bench. Hopefully Railey keeps his nose clean, if he does I expect him to also show improvement on the court.

And our team will be out to prove something next year which always bodes well.

 

[cykadelic2]

Are you serious? not in the top three?

As of now, KU's projected starting line-up next season is T.Taylor, E.Johnson, J.Withey, T.Robinson, and T.Releford. Three of those guys (Johnson, Withey, and Releford) remained nailed to the bench for the most part when KU needed their bench to bail out their starters against VCU. Those three also didn't do that much the rest of the season, either. That does not look to me like a Top 3 B12 team for next season when you consider the returning talent/experience at A&M, Mizzou, and Baylor. And if Texas picks up Olu Ashaolu and/or DeAndre Daniels, their roster will also look better or just as good as KU's. If KU is a legit contender, they will need Withey, Johnson and Releford to significantly improve and have freshmen like Tharpe, McLemore and Anderson contribute. Those freshmen do not have the credentials of prior KU impact recruits so it's questionable they can immediately contribute. If Daniels comes to KU, that could push them into the top 3.

 

[Jonecy]

It'll all come down to how this team handles adversity IMO. If we can weather some close losses and come together as an unselfish team, I like our chances. Coach Fred is a cool customer that knows how to roll w/ the punches, so I hope this team takes on that same personality and gets the job done.

 

[madcityCY]

Well, Olu Ashaolu has announced he is transferring to Oregon, so that's good he won't be a part of Texas team...

 

[rholtgraves]

As of now, KU's projected starting line-up next season is T.Taylor, E.Johnson, J.Withey, T.Robinson, and T.Releford. Three of those guys (Johnson, Withey, and Releford) remained nailed to the bench for the most part when KU needed their bench to bail out their starters against VCU. Those three also didn't do that much the rest of the season, either. That does not look to me like a Top 3 B12 team for next season when you consider the returning talent/experience at A&M, Mizzou, and Baylor. And if Texas picks up Olu Ashaolu and/or DeAndre Daniels, their roster will also look better or just as good as KU's. If KU is a legit contender, they will need Withey, Johnson and Releford to significantly improve and have freshmen like Tharpe, McLemore and Anderson contribute. Those freshmen do not have the credentials of prior KU impact recruits so it's questionable they can immediately contribute. If Daniels comes to KU, that could push them into the top 3.

You do realize that Baylor finished 7-9 in conference last year don't you and only had 21 wins total? and that hey lost their top scorer? Yeah they get Perry jones back and have a couple really good recruits but one of those recruits plays the same position as Jones. We beat Baylor last year at home easily and suddenly they are the best team in the league. I don't buy it. Texas A&M is not that talented and they have a new coach. Mizzou was better than Baylor and returns more players.

KU lost the Morris Twins but their production will be replaced by Robinson, Withey and their Freshman PF's. They lost Mario Little, but Releford is better than him and was a very good player until he got injured last year. Morningstar and Reed were solid players but Johnson, Tharpe, Teahan and Mclemore will easily make up for their contributions. Selby didn't do much so it wont be hard to replace him. And Taylor is still there.

 

[rholtgraves]

Oh, by the way, ISU will have a better record than baylor next year, so I wouldn't count on them being in the top three.

 

[cykadelic2]

You do realize that Baylor finished 7-9 in conference last year don't you and only had 21 wins total? and that hey lost their top scorer? Yeah they get Perry jones back and have a couple really good recruits but one of those recruits plays the same position as Jones. We beat Baylor last year at home easily and suddenly they are the best team in the league. I don't buy it. Texas A&M is not that talented and they have a new coach. Mizzou was better than Baylor and returns more players.

KU lost the Morris Twins but their production will be replaced by Robinson, Withey and their Freshman PF's. They lost Mario Little, but Releford is better than him and was a very good player until he got injured last year. Morningstar and Reed were solid players but Johnson, Tharpe, Teahan and Mclemore will easily make up for their contributions. Selby didn't do much so it wont be hard to replace him. And Taylor is still there.

Baylor losing Lace Dunn is addition by subtraction for Baylor. Baylor will be better priimary due to transfers Brady Heslip and Gary Franklin who will be significantly better and more stable in the backcourt for Baylor. Big upgrade over Dunn and AJ Walton from last season. There is no question they have the most talent next year but I agree it's no slam dunk they get first place or even a Top 3 finish. Also look for Jones to be much improved.

The level of proven returning talent and experience at Mizzou and A&M is better than KU's. There is uncertainty with the coaching changes at both places but I still think they finish above KU (assuming they don't get Daniels). I think A&M will actually be better off with Kennedy than Turgeon next season.

Not sure how you conclude that the Morriss twins' production will be replaced by Robinson (with limited offensive skills compared to the twins), Withey (rotting on the bench for two seasons and with good reason), and unproven frosh PFs. Only a KU homer would conclude that.

If Releford and Teahan (LOL that you mention him) couldn't beat out guys like Morningstar and Reed last season, then I wouldn't expect those two to be impact players this season. I would not expect much from Tharpe next season and McLemorre is no slam dunk to be star player right off the bat.

If Texas gets Daniels, they also have a chance to be better than KU.

ISU will definitely be a wildcard. The talent is there to be a Top 5 team if they gel together, play as a team, and accept coaching.

 

[clone4good]

Does anyone know if Missouri lost anyone due to the new coaching change? Also what about A&M? Have they lost anyone?

If both havnt loss anyone significant then I think it looks like this

Baylor
Texas
Missouri
Kansas
Oklahoma State
Iowa State
Texas A&M
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Tech

I also think that we have better 3 point shooting guards than almost any other team in the league. So if we are on we can beat anyone. Babb, Scotty, Allen and it sounds like McGee are deadly from deep.

 

[kucyclone]

Here's a good place to start for those of you that, well, don't know what they're talking about:

DraftExpress: Mock Draft
DraftExpress Rankings: NCAA Juniors
DraftExpress Rankings: NCAA Sophomores
DraftExpress Rankings: NCAA Freshmen
http://home.roadrunner.com/~rsci/RSCI_Summer_2011.htm

 

[brokenloginagain]

Does anyone know if Missouri lost anyone due to the new coaching change? Also what about A&M? Have they lost anyone?

If both havnt loss anyone significant then I think it looks like this

Baylor
Texas
Missouri
Kansas
Oklahoma State
Iowa State
Texas A&M
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Tech

I also think that we have better 3 point shooting guards than almost any other team in the league. So if we are on we can beat anyone. Babb, Scotty, Allen and it sounds like McGee are deadly from deep.

so your ranking is from the perspective of someone who doesn't know which players return, and which players or joining?

 

[bots]

Here's a good place to start for those of you that, well, don't know what they're talking about:

DraftExpress: Mock Draft
DraftExpress Rankings: NCAA Juniors
DraftExpress Rankings: NCAA Sophomores
DraftExpress Rankings: NCAA Freshmen
http://home.roadrunner.com/~rsci/RSCI_Summer_2011.htm

I'm sure your condescending tone will help bolster support for your argument. :skeptical:

While these type of rankings aren't entirely irrelevant they're certainly not a definitive method of assessing a college team "on paper" or even in projecting a team's performance.

It doesn't take a genius to see there's less than perfect correlation between draft projections (or selections) and college productivity. While NBA GMs may think the DeMar DeRozans of the world have the potential to be elite NBA players, that assessment has little to do with their college production. Meanwhile, Butler's teams from the past couple of years wouldn't blow up a mock draft, but they had a large number of effective college basketball players.

 

[rholtgraves]

Baylor losing Lace Dunn is addition by subtraction for Baylor. Baylor will be better priimary due to transfers Brady Heslip and Gary Franklin who will be significantly better and more stable in the backcourt for Baylor. Big upgrade over Dunn and AJ Walton from last season. There is no question they have the most talent next year but I agree it's no slam dunk they get first place or even a Top 3 finish. Also look for Jones to be much improved.

The level of proven returning talent and experience at Mizzou and A&M is better than KU's. There is uncertainty with the coaching changes at both places but I still think they finish above KU (assuming they don't get Daniels). I think A&M will actually be better off with Kennedy than Turgeon next season.

Not sure how you conclude that the Morriss twins' production will be replaced by Robinson (with limited offensive skills compared to the twins), Withey (rotting on the bench for two seasons and with good reason), and unproven frosh PFs. Only a KU homer would conclude that.

If Releford and Teahan (LOL that you mention him) couldn't beat out guys like Morningstar and Reed last season, then I wouldn't expect those two to be impact players this season. I would not expect much from Tharpe next season and McLemorre is no slam dunk to be star player right off the bat.

If Texas gets Daniels, they also have a chance to be better than KU.

ISU will definitely be a wildcard. The talent is there to be a Top 5 team if they gel together, play as a team, and accept coaching.

You are seriously not very smart if you think A&M has more talent than KU or Iowa State. A&M has average talent that got the most out of its players.

Baylor has the best single talents in the league but that doesn't mean that they have the best overall talent. Franklin has talent, but he is not a good shooter. The other transfer is nothing to get excited about.

Your argument that someone being a the bench = not good, is just a stupid argument because it doesn't take into account who is playing above them and the specifics of the situation.

I will bet you money KU finishes in the top 3 without Daniels.

 

[rholtgraves]

I'm sure your condescending tone will help bolster support for your argument. :skeptical:

While these type of rankings aren't entirely irrelevant they're certainly not a definitive method of assessing a college team "on paper" or even in projecting a team's performance.

It doesn't take a genius to see there's less than perfect correlation between draft projections (or selections) and college productivity. While NBA GMs may think the DeMar DeRozans of the world have the potential to be elite NBA players, that assessment has little to do with their college production. Meanwhile, Butler's teams from the past couple of years wouldn't blow up a mock draft, but they had a large number of effective college basketball players.

But to say Butler doesnt have NBA/pro talent is stupid. Butler had Mack, Howard and Heyward who will all play proffesional ball somewhere, along with other guys who are talented.

Also this thread was who has the most "talent" in the league, not how well will those players gell and produce during a basketball season.

 

[rholtgraves]

Does anyone know if Missouri lost anyone due to the new coaching change? Also what about A&M? Have they lost anyone?

If both havnt loss anyone significant then I think it looks like this

Baylor
Texas
Missouri
Kansas
Oklahoma State
Iowa State
Texas A&M
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Tech

I also think that we have better 3 point shooting guards than almost any other team in the league. So if we are on we can beat anyone. Babb, Scotty, Allen and it sounds like McGee are deadly from deep.

I agree with you except I would but Texas fourth, and I think you could easily put ISU ahead of Oklahoma St because while they have a couple really big talents i think overall we are more talented.

I agree that we should have the best three point shooting team in the conference.

 

[jaretac]

I guess the question is, overall talent or class rankings? Are we talking about the talent of our 2011 team or the talent of our 2011 class (or 2012 class?)?

 

[baylrballa]

Baylor losing Lace Dunn is addition by subtraction for Baylor. Baylor will be better priimary due to transfers Brady Heslip and Gary Franklin who will be significantly better and more stable in the backcourt for Baylor. Big upgrade over Dunn and AJ Walton from last season. There is no question they have the most talent next year but I agree it's no slam dunk they get first place or even a Top 3 finish. Also look for Jones to be much improved.

.

I doubt Franklin or heslip will even start for us. Though will add functional depth along with bello which was nonexistent.

Look for Pierre Jackson and Walton. Walton was never a pure PG and put in a tough position last year. He was still in the conversation for the best defensive guard in the league last year.

Jackson has a lot of hype following him in. I hope he can live up to it.

Baylor's toughest task is to find a place for arguably our best three players who all play small forward (jones, jones, miller). Lots of banter back and forth between fans on what could/should happen. Drew has some work ahead of him.

Looking forward to a situational lineup of 6'1" 6'9" 6'10" 6'11" 6'11"

 

[clone4good]

so your ranking is from the perspective of someone who doesn't know which players return, and which players or joining?

Do you know if they lost anyone? Look up Missouri and A&M's recruiting classes the last few years. They were much better than ours and I still put us ahead of A&M. We only have Royce, Allen, Booker, Ejim, Scotty, Babb that are proven. Thats it. You cant say Sledge, McGee, and Gibson are better than the teams that i put ahead of us or close to us until you see them. They look good on paper and we talk them up like they will be the next big thing next year. And honestly we have been talking players up for the last 5 years. I have to wait to see these guys play first. So yes as of now i guess these rankings are on the perspective of not knowing if a couple of these teams lost players due to coaching change. If these teams havnt lost anyone then yes this is how is see the rankings.

 

[bots]

But to say Butler doesnt have NBA/pro talent is stupid.

I agree - and I'd love you to show where I said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

The point is mock drafts might have some correlation to college success, but to simply point to a mock as proof of how good a college team is "on paper" is stupid.

I would argue that an "on paper" assessment of a college team is a function of how good of college players are on the roster (not how high of NBA ceilings), and at what point in their development each player is. A seasoned 22 YO player with significant high D1 experience is likely a better player "on paper" for the upcoming college season that a highly touted frosh player who's just stopping by on his way to the nba.

 

[kucyclone]

I agree - and I'd love you to show where I said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

The point is mock drafts might have some correlation to college success, but to simply point to a mock as proof of how good a college team is "on paper" is stupid.

I would argue that an "on paper" assessment of a college team is a function of how good of college players are on the roster (not how high of NBA ceilings), and at what point in their development each player is. A seasoned 22 YO player with significant high D1 experience is likely a better player "on paper" for the upcoming college season that a highly touted frosh player who's just stopping by on his way to the nba.

The question was "talent," though. Brady Morningstar was a better college player than Josh Selby. Are you telling me that Brady Morningstar is more talented than Josh Selby?

That's why Baylor has to be first on this list. Nobody else in the conference even has one player as talented as Quincy Miller or Perry Jones, and Baylor has two of them.