This is pretty much what he did with the Twins so maybe this is more typical. Maybe the last couple of years were a fluke.
MLB: Why is David Ortiz Sucking?
- Thread starter mplscyclone
- Start date
Ok, so a bad defensive outfielder can cost 5-10 wins... How many would an average outfielder cost a team? 2-5? I've seen Ichiro and Torii Hunter make mistakes in the field; no one is perfect.
How many games does Manny help you win at the plate? Probably more than 5-10. This is why I can't stand people ******** about this.
Last year, his runs created for the team was 145. A lineup of 9 Mannys would give you 10 runs per game.
Who did Manny replace last year as on everyday OF? Juan Pierre? Juan Pierre's runs created for the team was 44.
I'd sacrifice some defense to get an extra 100 runs for my team. Wouldn't you? You couldn't say Manny's defense is costing the team more than 100 runs per season.
Steroids wouldn't surprise me at all, but I wouldn't think it would drastically effect his BA like it has. I think he would still be able to put the bat on the ball. Look at the SO's, he K's over 25% of his at bats.
Happens to me all the time. The guy just tales a long time to crank up after the roids are gone.
If you noticed, I pretty much agreed with you concerning Manny.
What I don't agree with is saying that the same "net gain" criteria can be applied to all outfielders. A great hitter may make his mistakes in the field more than even out. That factor diminishes with the productivity of the hitter.
In my example of Daniel Murphy, he's may not win as many games with his bat that he loses with his glove.
While I'm suspect of any player from about 1985 on taking PEDs (except Griffey - and I'd be heartbroken to find out I was played on that one), the more I look at stats the more I'm convinced it's due to a combination of age and the lack of protection of Man-Ram than it is steroids (although that's a possibility). As soon as Ortiz joined the Sox his numbers jumped. As soon as Man-Ram left 6 years later, they tanked. While steroids could quite possibly be an explanation, it's an easy scapegoat as well.
I would also be heartbroken if Griffey ever used or got caught for it. After all the roids talk for so long it didnt really bother me but when I heard about Manny thats when I just started gettin dissapointed.
That paragraph makes so sense to me at all.
Daniel Murphy is not a productive MLB baseball player. Daniel Murphy has a VORP of -1.2. He's probably the worst every day position player on the Mets at the plate. So of course if he stinks it up in the Outfield it's going to cost the team. He costs the team both at the plate and in the field.
Sigh. I'll try and spell it out for you.
You said this: I don't think most of you realize how little effect outfield defense has on wins and losses.
I said that it depends on the outfielder. Manny makes up for his deficiencies, others do not.
It does if they really suck. As a White Sox fan who's had to watch such fun experiments as Rob Mackowiak and Jose Valentin in CF - if they blow, they can really hurt you. Especially when we've had Rowand and Anderson in CF - two gold glove caliber defenders. If you have crappy OF defense, especially in CF, it can lead to quite a few runs.
Would Team Manny be able to get three outs without unearned runs? Would Team Manny score ten runs a game off roids? I had hom on my fantasy team and I had to release him since 50 games is a long suspension. Now if I could only trade away injury prone Chipper jones. He is the one that needs to be on HGH.
Speaking as a fan that witnessed both Torii Hunter (with his amazing range and his reckless disregard for collisions with the outfield wall) and Michael Cuddyer (with his cannon of an arm) save countless runs with their outfield defense, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one... :smile:
Exactly. I can sympathize, because like I said earlier, Daniel Murphy has already lost 2-3 games for the Mets. He's supposed to be able to make that up with his bat, but isn't. He is improving in the outfield, but I'm just not sure it's going to work.
No, no, no! I didn't say that defensive outfielders don't make a difference! Mpls did! I rebutted that, and he couldn't understand it, so I clarified.
Good outfielders make a huge difference, IMO.
