Where's everyone coming from

[cycloneworld]

When I went through confirmation, my pastor said two things that stuck out in my mind:
1) You can cuss, just don't do it all the time (like rappers)
2) A church is not a building. A church is wherever people gather to worship God.

These go to further my point.
1) Why can't I swear? Does it say anywhere in the bible I can't swear like a sailor if I wanted to (honest question because I don't know)? If not, why has the religious organization said that swearing isn't "allowed".
2) Then why is it common knowledge that you "need" to go to church to be a good Christian? I had a pretty good relationship with my hometown pastor...he would always ask me if I was going to church in Ames, to which I would say "no". And he would ask why not and that I should be going? Why?

 

[CyGal]

These go to further my point.
1) Why can't I swear? Does it say anywhere in the bible I can't swear like a sailor if I wanted to (honest question because I don't know)? If not, why has the religious organization said that swearing isn't "allowed".
2) Then why is it common knowledge that you "need" to go to church to be a good Christian? I had a pretty good relationship with my hometown pastor...he would always ask me if I was going to church in Ames, to which I would say "no". And he would ask why not and that I should be going? Why?

It does say in the bible not to take the Lord's name in vain. I don't know about any other cuss words, though.

 

[cyclonekj]

These go to further my point.
1) Why can't I swear? Does it say anywhere in the bible I can't swear like a sailor if I wanted to (honest question because I don't know)? If not, why has the religious organization said that swearing isn't "allowed".
2) Then why is it common knowledge that you "need" to go to church to be a good Christian? I had a pretty good relationship with my hometown pastor...he would always ask me if I was going to church in Ames, to which I would say "no". And he would ask why not and that I should be going? Why?

2) I think we should go because we tend to get a lot of non-Christian propaganda the rest of the time. A weekly worship is a good chance to offset that. Personally, I think a traditional Sunday worship isn't the only way to accomplish that.

 

[Incyte]

I think that A god started it all, but that organized religion is more of a "feel good" story. With how divisive the religions are, I find it hard to believe that a true god would tell us that we have to worship him a specific way, and live by numerous odd "laws" or we get to spend an eternity in an Inferno. I mean, was Jesus a man with schizophrenia, a prophet, a real son of god, a complete story, or what? I can't figure things like that out. The whole organization of religions seem to rely too much on scaring me out of hell and into heaven for me to take it too seriously.

You, like most Christian-haters, just defined Christianity in a way that most Christians do not agree with. The ignorance on what Christians believe is pretty funny.

 

[joepublic]

The ignorance on what Christians believe is pretty funny.

Then enligthen us, teacher. I know you're dyin' to.

 

[Incyte]

Then enligthen us, teacher. I know you're dyin' to.

Most organized Christian religions I have encountered believe salvation is a "gift" and we can not earn it because we cannot fully comply with the law. Attempting to abide by the law does not earn us a spot in heaven. It's a gift of grace and I go to church to worship because I'm thankful for it.

Take it for what it's worth: only my opinion as to what most Christians believe.

 

[Cyclone62]

Then tell me why if I don't feel that Jesus was a real person/savior why so many christians are trying to "save my soul"? That seems to be telling people you need to believe and worship a certain way.

 

[wonkadog]

Well, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins in order to be considered a Christian in most people's minds so if you have questions as to whether he even existed then that's probably the problem you're running into. I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences in the past but unlike the rest of the world, most Christians are genuinely concerned about where you'll spend eternity. I can see how that concern can often be seen as "pushiness" and "forcing a religion on you."

 

[tigershoops31]

I think that there is an essentially air-tight argument against a typical Christian worldview which includes a tri-omni (all powerful, knowing, and good/loving) God and people who spend an eternity in hell.

What is your air-tight argument against it?

 

[CloneFan65]

Then tell me why if I don't feel that Jesus was a real person/savior why so many christians are trying to "save my soul"? That seems to be telling people you need to believe and worship a certain way.

First, it's generally accepted that Jesus was a real person. There are many non-Christian historical records of his existence. Second, whether or not you choose to believe he died for your sins is up to you, but please don't make generalizations about Christianity. I'm sure there are some Christians that believe it's necessary to follow certain "odd laws", but they are a small minority. The New Testement teaches that you just need to believe in Christ to be saved. No rules. No fear.

 

[Cyclone62]

Well, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins in order to be considered a Christian in most people's minds so if you have questions as to whether he even existed then that's probably the problem you're running into. I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences in the past but unlike the rest of the world, most Christians are genuinely concerned about where you'll spend eternity. I can see how that concern can often be seen as "pushiness" and "forcing a religion on you."

I understand the concern part, but for those who do not believe the same thing(s) exactly, telling them they need to find Jesus (like a Jew) would be considered pressuring one faith on someone else. And that, is essentially the problem with allowing faith to run your job (as a teacher, chaplain/counselor, etc.) I'm not saying I believe necessarily that there wasn't a son of god/Jesus, but I have trouble believing my actions as a good and moral person would count against me in the eyes of God. I also believe there would be a purgetory-zone in the afterlife for semi-righteous/moral non-believers if there is a just God. I just think that saying that not believing wholeheartedly is going to send you to the same place as those who denounce God altogether and those who are truly evil is a bit of a scare tactic. Just my take on organized religion.

 

[mj4cy]

I'm a Christian by faith, not by religion.

 

[Kyle]

What is your air-tight argument against it?

Basically just a modified problem of evil argument. Here's a barebones premise/conclusion form.

1. There exists a God which is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.
2. Such a God would not allow beings to come into existence that would eventually spend an eternity in hell unless it was necessary for the existence of a greater good.
3. The existence of beings that will spend an eternity in hell is not necessary for the existence of a greater good.
4. Beings exist that will spend an eternity in hell.
C. As the above 4 statements are not internally consistent one must be false.

Typically Christians will attack premise 3 as the false one, usually asserting that free will is the greater good. There are several ways this can be addressed, so I'll save that for later if there is interest.

 

[Cyclonepride]

2) Then why is it common knowledge that you "need" to go to church to be a good Christian? I had a pretty good relationship with my hometown pastor...he would always ask me if I was going to church in Ames, to which I would say "no". And he would ask why not and that I should be going? Why?

I'll paraphrase something that I read in the New Testament that goes against that thought, Jesus said that wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, He will be among them. That's enough for me to believe that I can worship where I see fit, whether it's in the middle of a fancy church, or kneeling in my bedroom at night.

 

[LindenCy]

Basically just a modified problem of evil argument. Here's a barebones premise/conclusion form.

1. There exists a God which is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.
2. Such a God would not allow beings to come into existence that would eventually spend an eternity in hell unless it was necessary for the existence of a greater good.
3. The existence of beings that will spend an eternity in hell is not necessary for the existence of a greater good.
4. Beings exist that will spend an eternity in hell.
C. As the above 4 statements are not internally consistent one must be false.

Typically Christians will attack premise 3 as the false one, usually asserting that free will is the greater good. There are several ways this can be addressed, so I'll save that for later if there is interest.

I'm actually writing my dissertation on evil and sin. It should be fun. :biggrin9gp:

 

[Cyclone62]

I still believe in God and follow a lot of Christian morals and ideals but I think organized religion is sham for several reasons. I think there are other ways to practice Christianity without going to church and a pastor/church telling you what to do and how to act.

Here here! ::clanks beer glasses::

 

[Kyle]

I'm actually writing my dissertation on evil and sin. It should be fun. :biggrin9gp:

Where and what are you studying?

 

[CloneFan65]

Basically just a modified problem of evil argument. Here's a barebones premise/conclusion form.

1. There exists a God which is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.
2. Such a God would not allow beings to come into existence that would eventually spend an eternity in hell unless it was necessary for the existence of a greater good.
3. The existence of beings that will spend an eternity in hell is not necessary for the existence of a greater good.
4. Beings exist that will spend an eternity in hell.
C. As the above 4 statements are not internally consistent one must be false.

Typically Christians will attack premise 3 as the false one, usually asserting that free will is the greater good. There are several ways this can be addressed, so I'll save that for later if there is interest.

This argument, if you accept the premises, concludes that an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good god contradicts the concept of eternal hell. It doesn't prove that there is a contradiction in a god that is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all good. The typical argument against this concerns a contradiction with the existence of evil in the world. This is where the counter-argument for free will comes in.

 

[Kyle]

This argument, if you accept the premises, concludes that an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good god contradicts the concept of eternal hell. It doesn't prove that there is a contradiction in a god that is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all good. The typical argument against this concerns a contradiction with the existence of evil in the world. This is where the counter-argument for free will comes in.

Thus why I said it was just a modified problem of evil argument. I think my argument is a bit stronger, but it is clearly more narrowly focussed on a belief system that includes hell. The free will thing doesn't work against the regular problem of evil either though. :wink0st:

 

[Incyte]

Then tell me why if I don't feel that Jesus was a real person/savior why so many christians are trying to "save my soul"? That seems to be telling people you need to believe and worship a certain way.

Do you not really believe Jesus was not a real person? That seems to defy reason if you ask me.