Completely agree. We need to copy absolutely everything about Kansas State. They've found a way to win in this conference with inferior talent than their peers.
We left behind what we did best..
- Thread starter Beyerball
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Completely agree. We need to copy absolutely everything about Kansas State. They've found a way to win in this conference with inferior talent than their peers.
Maybe I'm the one remembering wrong. I recall Chiz's offense being a vanilla spread, and Herman more in love with the read-option stuff.
Better O-Line makes everything better.
ISU needs their offense to be more "run-game featured." They're not going to compete in this league if the feature is on skill players on the edge, and precise passing. Just can't recruit to that level.
Also don't necessarily have to use the "I" to run well, you can run well from "spread" formations, but the O-line philosophy and recruitment really needs to be examined.
Fixing the line and running well would cure a lot of ills for this team.
ISU needs their offense to be more "run-game featured." They're not going to compete in this league if the feature is on skill players on the edge, and precise passing. Just can't recruit to that level.
Also don't necessarily have to use the "I" to run well, you can run well from "spread" formations, but the O-line philosophy and recruitment really needs to be examined.
Fixing the line and running well would cure a lot of ills for this team.
At the end of the second year I thought Arnuad had some good games. I liked his arm, but wasn't able to use it under Herman because he was too busy getting beat up running straight through the teeth of the defense.
This brings up the second biggest issue. Who exactly on CPR's first staff was proven to have an eye for recruiting players for this offense (to a place like ISU, as it is a lot harder now than it was 15 years ago when this was innovative) or at developing players for this offense?
I do not think this scheme is optimal for ISU, and certainly was not what CPR should have gone with given the guys he inherited, but if you are going to choose it, you MUST hire guys that know it (CPR sure as hell didnt).
It is clear CPR's plan for building the program had huge fundamental flaws and it took 5 years for him to realize it.
It does, but it is predicated on a run game. That is how you create space in the secondary pulling up the safeties, or running when they drop them back. In the '80's Walsh had Roger Craig. It wasn't Joe Montana slinging the ball around. Watch the Bears, which I do every week, and what happens when they struggle to run.
Just my observations, Sage Rosenfels, I am not.
Ya I'm too young to really remember ever seeing it being used. So I honestly have no working knowledge of it.
You're right, CPR messed up on hiring Herman. He thought to bring in a guy that runs an offense where you need elite athletes to run it at this level. See Auburn and the size they have. The Ofensive staff starts recruiting smaller more athletic OL and here we are. Our best lines were Chizik's recruits. Why we could not see that? I don't know, I was too busy blaming the scheme. Here we are and Sam is being Coached by a 3rd OC. Last year he was put on the field when he shouldn't have. It's a train wreck.
We have a bigger mess on Offense than maybe anyone realized. The blame went on Messingham, and rightfully so, but we play football like guys who have a built in excuse. See the second half of the NDSU game. They threw in the towel thinking they couldn't win.
The biggest difference in what I saw in the OSU game was an Offense that was not executing a good game plan. Missing and dropping throws. We need a playmaker. Whether it is a new RB or Qb someone has to lead this offense.
It's really effective with a good OL and RB. Which is totally a captain obvvous statement as most offenses probably are.
"I couldn't be more excited to have a coach of Tom's caliber joining my staff at Iowa State," Rhoads said. "The staggering numbers that his offense put up at Rice are indicative of his abilities. But, beyond his coaching expertise, I believe his recruiting ties in Texas, familiarity with the Big 12 and his innovative approach to moving the football and scoring points matches my vision for Iowa State football." January 3, 2009
The straight Bill Walsh West Coast offense is all about short, horizontal passes to spread out the defense, using that to draw them away from the box to open up running, and closer to the line of scrimmage to open up intermediate and deeper passes.
Philosophically, it's simply a change of philosophy from run-to-set-the-pass to pass-to-set-the-run.
I've been saying that we should be passing to set up the run for years. We're most successful running the ball when the defenses have a healthy respect for our passing game.
you have to go back to Virgil Carter to see it first start to work for Walsh. Back when he was with Cincinnati.
More than that, you are getting the head coach of the offense we have needed since Day 1. CPR's coaches speak about Herman was nice, but CPR got himself a play-caller in Herman, as evidence by how CPR filled out Herman's staff. Herman had success at Rice with other staffs players and was only there for two years. Not a huge indictment on Herman, but it is one on CPR.
Sure you have. Current teams in the NFL that use a version of the West Coast:
Bengals, Bears, Browns, 49ers, Chiefs, Colts, Jets, Redskins, Ravens, and Racists.
The quarterback is, far and away, the most important piece of a west coast offense. It requires extremely accurate passing, and extremely fast decision making. After that, a good running/scrambling quarterback is a huge advantage to a west coast system, because it negates some of the best ways to counter a west coast offense (mainly speed on the edges of the defense).
After the quarterback, the receivers are the next most important. They have to be really sure-handed, and excellent at coming up with catches in traffic. This is more important than speed or size. Look at pretty much the prototypical west coast receiver: a 6'2" guy who ran a 4.72 40 named Jerry Rice.
After the QB and the WR, you gotta have a running back with 2 skills: speed and hands. His job is to make the defense pay when they start to cheat against the quick passes, and he does that by hitting the hole fast. Secondary job is to be a dump-off for the QB if the coverage is too good on a play. This is why a QB with running ability is a good thing for a West Coast offense.
Offensive Lines are important, but not in any sort of special sense. Bill Walsh developed the version of the West Coast we talk about today to sort of mitigate a merely-mortal offensive line. It doesn't have to sustain blocks very long in the passing game, nor is it expected to create big holes for a running back.
This. The WCO was essentially designed to have short passes replace the run until the run could open up. In it a 4 or 5 yard pass was considered successful because a 4 or 5 yard run was considered successful. Once it lossened up the defense, the running backs had more breathing room. It was kind of like a dink and dunk offense where the receivers could make the plays. If you watched back in the day Rice wasn't racking up his yards by deep passes like Randy Moss used to. Rice would take an 8 yard catch over the middle and break it for 60. I don't know if they kept YAC stats for that time period, but is imaging his was pretty good.
Like I said, it requires 1) QB who is accurate and quick at the trigger, 2) WR who have great hands and who can catch in traffic, 3) RB that is FAST and can catch.
I'm not sure that we have those in place (though I'm not sure that we don't). Otherwise it'd just be a philosophical switch.
