WBB: General All-NCAA Thread - Not Team Cyclones Stuff

[BoxsterCy]

I've seriously always thought Paige is better than Clark. Injuries have just derailed her career.

Outstanding players but Clark did do more with less in getting to the Final Four twice. Bueckers played in my school district and she has been building her brand since she was in HS with over 700,000 social media followers. I don't fault her at all for going to UConn and taking the near guarantee of Final Fours but she never took the Gophers to a Final Four. Granted, Iowa was in better shape than the Gophers but I don't think the Hawks had a single ranked player her freshman year. Bueckers has McD All-Americans players coming off the bench even with Ayanna Patterson, #4 ESPN 2022 out with an injury.

Here's some of her teammates last night (BTW, all were McD All-American Team):

• Sarah Strong, #1 ESPN 2024
• Azzi Fudd, #1 ESPN 2021
• Ice Brady, #5 ESPN 2022
• KK Arnold, #6 ESPN 2023
• Ashlyn Shade, #15 ESPN 2023
• Aubrey Griffen, ESPN #33 2019

This is a "super team" roster.

 

[BoxsterCy]

Hopefully this doesn't derail the thread, but I had a thought that I'm curious what you and others think: why did CC become a national phenomenon while PB has largely gone unnoticed by national media?

To be fair, PB is getting plenty of attention from ESPN and other media outlets. She's not a nobody, but you don't see her face EVERYWHERE like CC was. Last year, you couldn't watch any WBB game without hearing something about CC, even in games that didn't involve her.

I'm wondering if it was some combination of: CC's consistent deep 3s that made for great highlights, CC's outlandish nature/behavior that draws eyeballs, and the fact that she was the "first" to get all the big attention. Now, WBB is a little more normalized with national attention so PB being so good is not as novel.

As a Minnesotan from Bueckers school district this is something I have followed for years so I'll indulge myself with a too long to read response.

Bueckers was the national player of the year as a freshman and thee #1 NIL money maker in the WBB and the It Girl in NCAA basketball during Clark's freshman year. Clark came on after that as a fan phenomenal and sort of a perfect storm of crazy style on an underdog non-elite team. Might have been slightly different if Bueckers had not had her knee injury. Still, Bueckers is surrounded by McD All-Americans and other #1 ranked recruits so she rarely has to be the show unless it's crunch time and style does sell, like the difference between a dunk and layup. Without that injury there might have been a big media driven rivalry and I bet there is in the WNBA this summer. Still, right now it is hard to turn on a game without seeing either JuJu or Bueckers and it's a LOT of Bueckers commercials and that's with the nations #1 recruit, Strong, stealing some of the UConn media thunder from Bueckers. With JuJu out of the tournament it's going to be Bueckers, Bueckers, Bueckers 24/7 and you know the media money people really want UConn in the final.

One of the things that is different about them is Bueckers has been carefully crafting a brand since high school. Clark just played and stuff sort of happened with the media. Different players from the same class, same position but different styles, different approaches off court and both ended up on top with basketball and commercial success, just took quite different paths.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the media attention to JuJu, this years It Girl, with her having to sit out after ACL surgery. It's sort of paralleling the Bueckers injury storyline.

 

[loyalsons4evertrue]

Outstanding players but Clark did do more with less in getting to the Final Four twice. Bueckers played in my school district and she has been building her brand since she was in HS with over 700,000 social media followers. I don't fault her at all for going to UConn and taking the near guarantee of Final Fours but she never took the Gophers to a Final Four. Granted, Iowa was in better shape than the Gophers but I don't think the Hawks had a single ranked player her freshman year. Bueckers has McD All-Americans players coming off the bench even with Ayanna Patterson, #4 ESPN 2022 out with an injury.

Here's some of her teammates last night (BTW, all were McD All-American Team):

• Sarah Strong, #1 ESPN 2024
• Azzi Fudd, #1 ESPN 2021
• Ice Brady, #5 ESPN 2022
• KK Arnold, #6 ESPN 2023
• Ashlyn Shade, #15 ESPN 2023
• Aubrey Griffen, ESPN #33 2019

yeah it's hard to fault Beuckers for going to UConn...the fact of the matter is, they've been THE force in women's basketball for going on 3 decades now and little girls dream about playing for UConn. And it doesn't help that Minnesota could give a rats ass about women's basketball.

 

[throwittoblythe]

As a Minnesotan from Bueckers school district this is something I have followed for years so I'll indulge myself with a too long to read response.

Bueckers was the national player of the year as a freshman and thee #1 NIL money maker in the WBB and the It Girl in NCAA basketball during Clark's freshman year. Clark came on after that as a fan phenomenal and sort of a perfect storm of crazy style on an underdog non-elite team. Might have been slightly different if Bueckers had not had her knee injury. Still, Bueckers is surrounded by McD All-Americans and other #1 ranked recruits so she rarely has to be the show unless it's crunch time and style does sell, like the difference between a dunk and layup. Without that injury there might have been a big media driven rivalry and I bet there is in the WNBA this summer. Still, right now it is hard to turn on a game without seeing either JuJu or Bueckers and it's a LOT of Bueckers commercials and that's with the nations #1 recruit, Strong, stealing some of the UConn media thunder from Bueckers. With JuJu out of the tournament it's going to be Bueckers, Bueckers, Bueckers 24/7 and you know the media money people really want UConn in the final.

One of the things that is different about them is Bueckers has been carefully crafting a brand since high school. Clark just played and stuff sort of happened with the media. Different players from the same class, same position but different styles, different approaches off court and both ended up on top with basketball and commercial success, just took quite different paths.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the media attention to JuJu, this years It Girl, with her having to sit out after ACL surgery. It's sort of paralleling the Bueckers injury storyline.

Really good points here regarding the supporting cast. Iowa couldn't win if CC didn't go for at least 20-30 every night. Buecker's can go for 10 and 5 on many nights and UCONN still wins by 20+. So, that means fewer highlight reels and fewer eye-popping stats. That's a big part of the story I hadn't considered.

Plus the underdog story. You have an elite player going to a powerhouse program vs. CC carrying Iowa to two NC games in two years.

 

[swclone11]

yeah it's hard to fault Beuckers for going to UConn...the fact of the matter is, they've been THE force in women's basketball for going on 3 decades now and little girls dream about playing for UConn. And it doesn't help that Minnesota could give a rats ass about women's basketball.

This is also the focus of what I was thinking. Clark is, imo, a step above Bueckers anyway, but Bueckers is just another UCONN great in a long line of UCONN greats. She's special in her own way, but a lot of what people were tired of in wbb was the stagnancy of who's good. Changing that has been a long time coming, but Clark admittedly did have a good deal to do with changing that expectation.

And then also, someone mentioned the talent disparity between UCONN now and Iowa the past two years - and I have to hand it to her there as well. Clark's junior year she had Czinano and Warnock to go with Martin and Marshall - not a bad core and probably talented enough for an Elite 8 run in normal years. But her senior year, minus Czinano and Warnock? I didn't think they'd even sniff the Final 4, much less make the final. Martin is a really good player, but Marshall was really streaky. Stuelke has generally stayed stagnant minus Clark despite a few more minutes a game, maybe even taken a step back. That was genuinely very impressive.

 

[theshadow]

WNIT Quarterfinals

Monday, 7:00 - Troy at North Dakota State
Monday, 6:00 - Louisiana Tech at Illinois State
Buffalo 71, Rutgers 64
Monday, 6:00 - Cleveland State at Purdue Fort Wayne

Semifinals: TBD

Championship: Sunday, April 5

Troy 97, North Dakota State 88 (OT)
Illinois State 78, Louisiana Tech 70
Cleveland State 76, Purdue Fort Wayne 65

SEMIFINALS (Wednesday, 4/2)
5:00 (ESPN+) - Cleveland State at Buffalo
6:30 (ESPN+) - Troy at Illinois State

CHAMPIONSHIP (Sunday, 4/5)
Time/site to be determined

 

[kcdc4isu]

This is also the focus of what I was thinking. Clark is, imo, a step above Bueckers anyway, but Bueckers is just another UCONN great in a long line of UCONN greats. She's special in her own way, but a lot of what people were tired of in wbb was the stagnancy of who's good. Changing that has been a long time coming, but Clark admittedly did have a good deal to do with changing that expectation.

And then also, someone mentioned the talent disparity between UCONN now and Iowa the past two years - and I have to hand it to her there as well. Clark's junior year she had Czinano and Warnock to go with Martin and Marshall - not a bad core and probably talented enough for an Elite 8 run in normal years. But her senior year, minus Czinano and Warnock? I didn't think they'd even sniff the Final 4, much less make the final. Martin is a really good player, but Marshall was really streaky. Stuelke has generally stayed stagnant minus Clark despite a few more minutes a game, maybe even taken a step back. That was genuinely very impressive.

For me it gets down to who would you want at the end of a close game. For me it is Bueckers as she is a team player first and CC is me first.

 

[swclone11]

For me it gets down to who would you want at the end of a close game. For me it is Bueckers as she is a team player first and CC is me first.

Bueckers has always had teammates that are near equal to her skill - and significantly out-talent the opponent in most games. Strong, Fudd, Shade, etc. are all more than capable in end of game scenarios. Clark has never had that until the WNBA, and that's where I started giving her breaks - she shares the ball much better there, and having teammates that are just as capable surely helps.

 

[BoxsterCy]

yeah it's hard to fault Beuckers for going to UConn...the fact of the matter is, they've been THE force in women's basketball for going on 3 decades now and little girls dream about playing for UConn. And it doesn't help that Minnesota could give a rats ass about women's basketball.

Well, I'd say they care quite a bit and have a very loyal fan base in a WBB state but have just not been able to do much other than that three year run in 2003 when they had a Final Four and a couple of Sweet Sixteens, since than (and before) nothing. They tried going the Fred Hoiberg route with Lindsay Whalen and that was a flop. At least next year Dawn Plitzuweit should be able to make the NCAA if they can get another player from the portal. And the men's side has completely augered in which doesn't help with the optics from a national perspective.

 

[loyalsons4evertrue]

Well, I'd say they care quite a bit and have a very loyal fan base in a WBB state but have just not been able to do much other than that three year run in 2003 when they had a Final Four and a couple of Sweet Sixteens, since than (and before) nothing. They tried going the Fred Hoiberg route with Lindsay Whalen and that was a flop. At least next year Dawn Plitzuweit should be able to make the NCAA if they can get another player from the portal. And the men's side has completely augered in which doesn't help with the optics from a national perspective.

I guess from what I'm used to as I used to live in Minnesota, is that Minnesota (the state) is a pro sports state and they care very little about the U of M. And when it comes to U of M sports that matter to them, it's football and hockey that get the most attention. I think that's why you've seen the men's and women's basketball teams struggle...there has been a lack of support by their own admin/athletics department because Minnesota is inherently a hockey state.

The crazy thing is I'd argue Minnesota/Twin Cities metro has equally as good basketball talent as they do their hockey talent. But for quite a while now a lot of that men's and women's talent ends up going out of state (Suggs/Homlgren to Gonzaga for example, Wisconsin men's team pulls from MN a ton and tons of women's players from MN also end up at out of state schools)

 

[Three4Cy]

I've seriously always thought Paige is better than Clark. Injuries have just derailed her career.

Things might have been different if Paige and Clark had been able to go head-to-head over the four years. We saw it when they were freshman (20-21), and Paige was the national player of the year. After that, they didn't go head-to-head in a complete season again until 23-24, and by that time, Clark had blown up because she had almost two years of the spotlight.

 

[throwittoblythe]

Things might have been different if Paige and Clark had been able to go head-to-head over the four years. We saw it when they were freshman (20-21), and Paige was the national player of the year. After that, they didn't go head-to-head in a complete season again until 23-24, and by that time, Clark had blown up because she had almost two years of the spotlight.

My memory is fuzzy, but I seem to a recall Geno saying last year when Iowa played UCONN that they never offered CC out of HS. As I recall, it wasn't him saying "oh gee we really whiffed on that one." It was "she didn't fit what we needed." Not a knock on her as I think they had already signed PB, but more to say it didn't sound like CC had the opportunity to go to UCONN, honestly.

 

[Three4Cy]

My memory is fuzzy, but I seem to a recall Geno saying last year when Iowa played UCONN that they never offered CC out of HS. As I recall, it wasn't him saying "oh gee we really whiffed on that one." It was "she didn't fit what we needed." Not a knock on her as I think they had already signed PB, but more to say it didn't sound like CC had the opportunity to go to UCONN, honestly.

Geno Auriemma explains why he didn't recruit Caitlin Clark to her 'dream school' UConn

Caitlin Clark was reportedly very interested in going to UConn.

sports.yahoo.com

This - they had offered and Paige had committed. CC wanted a UConn offer and it never happened.

 

[BoxsterCy]

I guess from what I'm used to as I used to live in Minnesota, is that Minnesota (the state) is a pro sports state and they care very little about the U of M. And when it comes to U of M sports that matter to them, it's football and hockey that get the most attention. I think that's why you've seen the men's and women's basketball teams struggle...there has been a lack of support by their own admin/athletics department because Minnesota is inherently a hockey state.

The crazy thing is I'd argue Minnesota/Twin Cities metro has equally as good basketball talent as they do their hockey talent. But for quite a while now a lot of that men's and women's talent ends up going out of state (Suggs/Homlgren to Gonzaga for example, Wisconsin men's team pulls from MN a ton and tons of women's players from MN also end up at out of state schools)

^True.

I do think that's more of an issue for football since so many Minnesotans are Vikings Vikings Vikings 24/7. Hell, all off-season and it's still Vikings Vikings Vikings. The amount of ins-state talent in WBB that has escaped the Gophers is telling. They have at least landed some of the lesser ranked gals but will need to sustain some sort of NCAA presence before they can nab any higher up and they will never to able to afford the elite ones in todays NIL environmental. I do think the Lynx have shown there is a good WBB fan base since they draw well by WNBA standards and, because the Gophers have suckered, have pulled on the local success void left by the Gophers.

Gophers have also had some huge swings and misses on Minnesota HS talent evaluation. Ayoka Lee and Gianna Kneepkens were not even ranked recruits. From what I understand an offer from the Gophers would have landed Lee. Don't think they recruited Kneepkens. Marlene Stollings had a terrible relationship with local AAU and HS coaches and although Whalen may have failed she did at least work to restore that connection. It probably takes 4 years of recruiting to have a chance at landing a good HS kid so we'll see what Dawn Plitzuweit can do in the next couple of years.

 

[farm85]

Hopefully this doesn't derail the thread, but I had a thought that I'm curious what you and others think: why did CC become a national phenomenon while PB has largely gone unnoticed by national media?

To be fair, PB is getting plenty of attention from ESPN and other media outlets. She's not a nobody, but you don't see her face EVERYWHERE like CC was. Last year, you couldn't watch any WBB game without hearing something about CC, even in games that didn't involve her.

I'm wondering if it was some combination of: CC's consistent deep 3s that made for great highlights, CC's outlandish nature/behavior that draws eyeballs, and the fact that she was the "first" to get all the big attention. Now, WBB is a little more normalized with national attention so PB being so good is not as novel.

I honestly think the drama occurred because you "couldn't see her"....

 

[acoustimac]

Good conversation about PB and CC here. I’d reiterate that the publicity for PB disappeared when she did due to injury. TV is all about the eyes watching…if you're not on then you don’t get the attention. CC was blessed to avoid any critical injuries during her run.

 

[OWLCITYCYFAN]

Good conversation about PB and CC here. I’d reiterate that the publicity for PB disappeared when she did due to injury. TV is all about the eyes watching…if you're not on then you don’t get the attention. CC was blessed to avoid any critical injuries during her run.

The media has recently been obsessing over "why isn't PB as popular as CC?" - last week's angle was race-related and who knows where they'll go next!?! My personal reason for "downgrading" Paige's accomplishments is the same as previously cited by others - she doesn't have to carry the load because she's surrounded by tremendous talent. Azzi Fudd, formerly a #1 rated recruit, had a bad game vs USC and nobody noticed because they also have Sarah Strong & Bueckers.

Is Paige Bueckers even in the top ten of UCONN WBB players during the Geno era? Off the top of my head:
1a) Breanna Stewart
1b) Maya Moore
3) Napheesa Collier
4) Diana Taurasi
5) Sue Bird
6) Rebecca Lobo
7) Tina Charles

She's competing with some great players to get into the top ten! I'm a Swin Cash guy...

 

[BoxsterCy]

Some Big 12 news, Baylor reenforcing their coaching staff.

 

[psycln11]

Outstanding players but Clark did do more with less in getting to the Final Four twice. Bueckers played in my school district and she has been building her brand since she was in HS with over 700,000 social media followers. I don't fault her at all for going to UConn and taking the near guarantee of Final Fours but she never took the Gophers to a Final Four. Granted, Iowa was in better shape than the Gophers but I don't think the Hawks had a single ranked player her freshman year. Bueckers has McD All-Americans players coming off the bench even with Ayanna Patterson, #4 ESPN 2022 out with an injury.

Here's some of her teammates last night (BTW, all were McD All-American Team):

• Sarah Strong, #1 ESPN 2024
• Azzi Fudd, #1 ESPN 2021
• Ice Brady, #5 ESPN 2022
• KK Arnold, #6 ESPN 2023
• Ashlyn Shade, #15 ESPN 2023
• Aubrey Griffen, ESPN #33 2019

This is a "super team" roster.

That's a down year for Geno!!

 

[BoxsterCy]

Some Iowa and Iowan news.