This is why Prohm must go........

[Sigmapolis]

Will it mean anything who is in the rotation if Prohm is coaching?

Like it or not, he's the head coach until Pollard decides otherwise, which is probably going to mean he receives another year or maybe another two.

Might as well enjoy the ride and think positively in the meantime.

I am still plenty flustered with our current failures, however.

 

[isucy86]

agree to a point, but Tyrese, Bolton are playing the whole game. They are our primary ball handlers and play makers and being asked to excel on D. At some point the grind gets you and unfortunately that can happen late in games...just no reliable depth to help spell them, you need them in all the time to just stay within striking distance.

Every player should try to play great defense. Just because a player is strong on offense like Halliburton or Bolton, doesn't mean they are exempt from trying to play great defense. That has been part of the problem. If your team leaders don't walk-the-walk, then why should anyone else.

I agree that playing 40 mpg can be a negative, its not like Prohm hasn't asked other elite players to play major minutes. I do have a bit of an issue with Prohm on this. The Baylor game was over with 2-3 minutes left, but he left Halliburton in. Prohm can get players rest in blowout games.

 

[madguy30]

Soccer players around the world are giggling at this statement.

I see no excuse for a 20 year old 175lb D1 guard to be gassed with halftime, media breaks, timeouts, and free throws. If you’re a 230+ pound center that’s different.

You see a lot of soccer players sprinting for a lot of the time and guarding someone down in a stance? Without fouling?

I'm not saying someone can't do it, it's just not as easy as it sounds or else it would be much more common.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Haliburton and Bolton are both so good and there is such a paucity of options behind them that you kind of have to play them for 40 minutes like that.

I can imagine the uproar on here the second Haliburton checks out of a close game.

 

[Statefan10]

You see a lot of soccer players sprinting for a lot of the time and guarding someone down in a stance? Without fouling?

I'm not saying someone can't do it, it's just not as easy as it sounds or else it would be much more common.

Defense is not all about effort. It takes a lot of positioning / scouting along with effort to be able to be a good defender. We actually played very good defense at times in the Texas game. We were cutting guys off, boxing out well, and making Texas take some very tough shots. The problem was that when Texas went on their run, we fell apart on that end of the floor.

 

[VeloClone]

We ever go a full month of basketball in school history without a win?

Solid chance of doing so if we can’t beat Kansas State at home.

Hoiberg's first season according to Wikipedia.

Won a game January 15th and didn't win again until Feb 26th.

There's other years that were close.

17-18 could probably count as well. Last win on Feb 10, last loss on March 7 in the big 12 tournament.

Johnny's first year ISU got their first conference win on 21 JAN against Oklahoma. They got their second (and last) conference win in the last game of the season 28 FEB against Missouri.

In 2001-02 Larry managed it when his team beat Missouri on 09 JAN. They then lost 8 in a row before winning at Colorado on 13 FEB.

 

[madguy30]

Defense is not all about effort. It takes a lot of positioning / scouting along with effort to be able to be a good defender. We actually played very good defense at times in the Texas game. We were cutting guys off, boxing out well, and making Texas take some very tough shots. The problem was that when Texas went on their run, we fell apart on that end of the floor.

Where did I say defense is all about effort?

I'm saying that along with other things, playing defense can make playing 40 minutes harder than it sounds. Add in the variables of what kind of game the opponent plays and just playing 40 minutes because you're 20 and in shape is quite a task.

 

[madguy30]

Haliburton and Bolton are both so good and there is such a paucity of options behind them that you kind of have to play them for 40 minutes like that.

I can imagine the uproar on here the second Haliburton checks out of a close game.

A close game in the first half? Not a huge deal...so long as it's relatively short and CSP doesn't 'trust his gut' and keeps him out while the other team goes on a huge run.

A close game late? Uproar is warranted.

 

[Cyclone560]

Here's my biggest issue with all the fire Prohm talk:

It just feels like everyone has their tweet or post about firing prohm queued up ready to hit send before the games even start ready to rip him if/when we lose.

Hes certainly not above criticism and there is definitely plenty fair criticism (however this is always the case with all coaches, everybody is always going to think they can do something better, Scott Drew was(maybe still is?) mocked as a bad coach for years).

But will anyone give him any credit where its deserved? I feel like the biggest criticism that I have seen of his coaching is his lack of adjustments and his lineup/rotation rigidity. Both of which I thought he clearly changed this game. First of all he changed the starting lineup pulling Nixon and played Nixon very limited minutes (and he was actually pretty good in the minutes he played...). He played pulled GC early and didn't put him back in (I Like GC and want him to play but he has been really bad lately and he got absolutely roasted by Sims early and often to start the game). Early in the second half they clearly made a concerted effort to get the ball inside and for the most part it worked really well getting foul trouble on Sims and scoring early on. Zion Griffin also played more minutes, which personally I'm not sure how I feel about it, but its a different lineup combo at least. His minutes this game were much reactionary to the game at hand which is what everyone wanted.

Basically I feel like a lot of the above is what he has been criticized for not doing and he did it this past game but still gets all the same complaints. I thought he generally coached a good game and just feel like if people still rip in super hard after this game then I don't know what he can do to satisfy anyone. Just feels like people enjoy ripping him more than they would enjoy him doing a good job and that sucks.

 

[Cyfanisu]

Here's my biggest issue with all the fire Prohm talk:

It just feels like everyone has their tweet or post about firing prohm queued up ready to hit send before the games even start ready to rip him if/when we lose.

Hes certainly not above criticism and there is definitely plenty fair criticism (however this is always the case with all coaches, everybody is always going to think they can do something better, Scott Drew was(maybe still is?) mocked as a bad coach for years).

But will anyone give him any credit where its deserved? I feel like the biggest criticism that I have seen of his coaching is his lack of adjustments and his lineup/rotation rigidity. Both of which I thought he clearly changed this game. First of all he changed the starting lineup pulling Nixon and played Nixon very limited minutes (and he was actually pretty good in the minutes he played...). He played pulled GC early and didn't put him back in (I Like GC and want him to play but he has been really bad lately and he got absolutely roasted by Sims early and often to start the game). Early in the second half they clearly made a concerted effort to get the ball inside and for the most part it worked really well getting foul trouble on Sims and scoring early on. Zion Griffin also played more minutes, which personally I'm not sure how I feel about it, but its a different lineup combo at least. His minutes this game were much reactionary to the game at hand which is what everyone wanted.

Basically I feel like a lot of the above is what he has been criticized for not doing and he did it this past game but still gets all the same complaints. I thought he generally coached a good game and just feel like if people still rip in super hard after this game then I don't know what he can do to satisfy anyone. Just feels like people enjoy ripping him more than they would enjoy him doing a good job and that sucks.

He can win. Its that simple.
No one enjoys “ripping” Prohm, (I prefer the term criticizing) and I think we all want him and ISU to succeed, but we need to win.

 

[MartyFine]

Here's my biggest issue with all the fire Prohm talk:

It just feels like everyone has their tweet or post about firing prohm queued up ready to hit send before the games even start ready to rip him if/when we lose.

Hes certainly not above criticism and there is definitely plenty fair criticism (however this is always the case with all coaches, everybody is always going to think they can do something better, Scott Drew was(maybe still is?) mocked as a bad coach for years).

But will anyone give him any credit where its deserved? I feel like the biggest criticism that I have seen of his coaching is his lack of adjustments and his lineup/rotation rigidity. Both of which I thought he clearly changed this game. First of all he changed the starting lineup pulling Nixon and played Nixon very limited minutes (and he was actually pretty good in the minutes he played...). He played pulled GC early and didn't put him back in (I Like GC and want him to play but he has been really bad lately and he got absolutely roasted by Sims early and often to start the game). Early in the second half they clearly made a concerted effort to get the ball inside and for the most part it worked really well getting foul trouble on Sims and scoring early on. Zion Griffin also played more minutes, which personally I'm not sure how I feel about it, but its a different lineup combo at least. His minutes this game were much reactionary to the game at hand which is what everyone wanted.

Basically I feel like a lot of the above is what he has been criticized for not doing and he did it this past game but still gets all the same complaints. I thought he generally coached a good game and just feel like if people still rip in super hard after this game then I don't know what he can do to satisfy anyone. Just feels like people enjoy ripping him more than they would enjoy him doing a good job and that sucks.

ISU is 133rd nationally in the defensive efficiency rating right now (right behind Drake). That is not going to cut it, ever. How is that being addressed?

 

[Cyclone560]

He can win. Its that simple.
No one enjoys “ripping” Prohm, (I prefer the term criticizing) and I think we all want him and ISU to succeed, but we need to win.

And I get that obviously we need to win and this year is frustrating, absolutely.

My issue is I'm not so sure everyone does want him to succeed it feels like hes constantly being criticized no matter and can't win with a portion (probably small, but gets magnified with comments) of this fan base.

First two years he is successful on the court, its not a matter of if he can coach or not, but rather its the fact that he didn't get those players so it doesn't really count.

Down year in year 3, fine whatever.

Year 4 has a great year with all of his own players (minus Nick Babb I think?) and then we want to criticize him after the fact because it wasn't good enough they underachieved despite a big12 tourney title. That team was picked to finish 7th in the Big12 and they got a 6 seed. They actually massively exceeded preseason expectations yet its still a black mark on his record seemingly.

We have a down year again but the main point is he's been criticized for everything under the sun it seems and has shown success in those areas at different points but it goes unnoticed.

People say he doesn't develop players, well he's about to have his 3rd player drafted that was uniquely his own player (so take out Niang. Nader, Morris). Nader also made a huge jump from his junior year to his senior year (first year with prohm). Shayok was thought to be an impact guy, but nobody predicted him to the first team all big12 player he was after transferring and sitting a year under prohm. Tyrese has made huge strides, people questioned whether he could handle the huge usage increase and he has I think even better than most optimistic analysts thought.

He gets players, he's great at finding under the radar talent (see Tyrese, Cam Lard even, Solomon Young to some extent, George Conditt none of these guys were rated highly). I think Tre Jackson could be the next in line there maybe this upcoming PG Jaden Walker (I think that's his name?).

I think theres a lot of reason to be patient especially considering his track record of getting players. Just feels like everyone wants to jump on to fire him as soon as we have a downturn. Which, all programs have (except the blue bloods and even they do on occasion). As much as we want it to be ISU isn't an easy job, and doesn't have a long standing tradition of sustained success, lets not get ready to fire a guy over 2 bad years.

 

[Statefan10]

And I get that obviously we need to win and this year is frustrating, absolutely.

My issue is I'm not so sure everyone does want him to succeed it feels like hes constantly being criticized no matter and can't win with a portion (probably small, but gets magnified with comments) of this fan base.

First two years he is successful on the court, its not a matter of if he can coach or not, but rather its the fact that he didn't get those players so it doesn't really count.

Down year in year 3, fine whatever.

Year 4 has a great year with all of his own players (minus Nick Babb I think?) and then we want to criticize him after the fact because it wasn't good enough they underachieved despite a big12 tourney title. That team was picked to finish 7th in the Big12 and they got a 6 seed. They actually massively exceeded preseason expectations yet its still a black mark on his record seemingly.

We have a down year again but the main point is he's been criticized for everything under the sun it seems and has shown success in those areas at different points but it goes unnoticed.

People say he doesn't develop players, well he's about to have his 3rd player drafted that was uniquely his own player (so take out Niang. Nader, Morris). Nader also made a huge jump from his junior year to his senior year (first year with prohm). Shayok was thought to be an impact guy, but nobody predicted him to the first team all big12 player he was after transferring and sitting a year under prohm. Tyrese has made huge strides, people questioned whether he could handle the huge usage increase and he has I think even better than most optimistic analysts thought.

He gets players, he's great at finding under the radar talent (see Tyrese, Cam Lard even, Solomon Young to some extent, George Conditt none of these guys were rated highly). I think Tre Jackson could be the next in line there maybe this upcoming PG Jaden Walker (I think that's his name?).

I think theres a lot of reason to be patient especially considering his track record of getting players. Just feels like everyone wants to jump on to fire him as soon as we have a downturn. Which, all programs have (except the blue bloods and even they do on occasion). As much as we want it to be ISU isn't an easy job, and doesn't have a long standing tradition of sustained success, lets not get ready to fire a guy over 2 bad years.

I think that you made some very good points. I do think though that Prohm has a lot of areas he has to get better in. In game adjustments, play calling, and roster management are a few of them. I understand he doesn't have the cream of the crop to work with this year but it's his team and he should get criticized for not being able to figure out what works and what doesn't work this far into the season.

Prohm isn't going to get fired after this year. He will have next year for sure and maybe even the year after unless things get worse than they currently are (please God do not let that happen). But, next year he is going to have to do better in those areas that I just mentioned or else the criticism will still come and his seat will be on fire. People are on edge. Going to the tournament every other year is not what Iowa State has been accustomed to the past 10 years. Prohm has to find the fine line between getting the great players who might head to the NBA quickly and getting the guys that stick it out for 4 years. You need guys that are with the program for a few years and lately Prohm hasn't been able to find those guys.

Next year's class could be different but we're all going to have to wait and see. There might be an extra spot or two that open up that Prohm's going to have to work with. That spot is going to be incredibly important IMO in regards to how next year goes. Can he find a high level grad transfer or JUCO player that can make an immediate impact? This spring is going to be critical for Prohm and his staff.

 

[cyclones500]

Johnny's first year ISU got their first conference win on 21 JAN against Oklahoma. They got their second (and last) conference win in the last game of the season 28 FEB against Missouri.

In 2001-02 Larry managed it when his team beat Missouri on 09 JAN. They then lost 8 in a row before winning at Colorado on 13 FEB.

I thought Win 2 Orr's first year was vs. Colorado. (Without looking it up -- correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Cyclone560]

I think that you made some very good points. I do think though that Prohm has a lot of areas he has to get better in. In game adjustments, play calling, and roster management are a few of them. I understand he doesn't have the cream of the crop to work with this year but it's his team and he should get criticized for not being able to figure out what works and what doesn't work this far into the season.

Prohm isn't going to get fired after this year. He will have next year for sure and maybe even the year after unless things get worse than they currently are (please God do not let that happen). But, next year he is going to have to do better in those areas that I just mentioned or else the criticism will still come and his seat will be on fire. People are on edge. Going to the tournament every other year is not what Iowa State has been accustomed to the past 10 years. Prohm has to find the fine line between getting the great players who might head to the NBA quickly and getting the guys that stick it out for 4 years. You need guys that are with the program for a few years and lately Prohm hasn't been able to find those guys.

Next year's class could be different but we're all going to have to wait and see. There might be an extra spot or two that open up that Prohm's going to have to work with. That spot is going to be incredibly important IMO in regards to how next year goes. Can he find a high level grad transfer or JUCO player that can make an immediate impact? This spring is going to be critical for Prohm and his staff.

Ya and I agree with that too. I guess I mainly get frustrated (probably overly so) in the fact that we understand he's going to be around still and so what good does calling for his job now do? Just wish people would show more support in that regard. Doesn't mean you can't criticize or be frustrated, you should, its just the unwavering calls for him to be fired aggravate me.

One last thing (and then I'll chill for a bit, or at least try to): In regards to not being accustomed to the tourney every other year, I think there's a fine line between not settling/wanting success and being somewhat realistic. I just mean that in regards to the fact that we don't have a great basketball tradition, we really have no long term successful coaches historically. Floyd was brief, Eustachy was brief....Orr gets a lot of love, but honestly didn't have near the success we are currently enjoying rather he just brought the program back to relevance. Before the most recent stretch ISU has only had back-to-back years with a .500 or better conference record 4 times since 1964 and all those were only 2 year stretches. You have to go back to 1960-63 to find a stretch of more than 2 years. Down years are inevitable especially at ISU and I would argue especially in this modern era with transfers and guys leaving early for the Pros (even to go undrafted) there is unprecedented roster turnover in today's game which only makes consistency that much harder.

 

[Cyfanisu]

And I get that obviously we need to win and this year is frustrating, absolutely.

My issue is I'm not so sure everyone does want him to succeed it feels like hes constantly being criticized no matter and can't win with a portion (probably small, but gets magnified with comments) of this fan base.

First two years he is successful on the court, its not a matter of if he can coach or not, but rather its the fact that he didn't get those players so it doesn't really count.

Down year in year 3, fine whatever.

Year 4 has a great year with all of his own players (minus Nick Babb I think?) and then we want to criticize him after the fact because it wasn't good enough they underachieved despite a big12 tourney title. That team was picked to finish 7th in the Big12 and they got a 6 seed. They actually massively exceeded preseason expectations yet its still a black mark on his record seemingly.

We have a down year again but the main point is he's been criticized for everything under the sun it seems and has shown success in those areas at different points but it goes unnoticed.

People say he doesn't develop players, well he's about to have his 3rd player drafted that was uniquely his own player (so take out Niang. Nader, Morris). Nader also made a huge jump from his junior year to his senior year (first year with prohm). Shayok was thought to be an impact guy, but nobody predicted him to the first team all big12 player he was after transferring and sitting a year under prohm. Tyrese has made huge strides, people questioned whether he could handle the huge usage increase and he has I think even better than most optimistic analysts thought.

He gets players, he's great at finding under the radar talent (see Tyrese, Cam Lard even, Solomon Young to some extent, George Conditt none of these guys were rated highly). I think Tre Jackson could be the next in line there maybe this upcoming PG Jaden Walker (I think that's his name?).

I think theres a lot of reason to be patient especially considering his track record of getting players. Just feels like everyone wants to jump on to fire him as soon as we have a downturn. Which, all programs have (except the blue bloods and even they do on occasion). As much as we want it to be ISU isn't an easy job, and doesn't have a long standing tradition of sustained success, lets not get ready to fire a guy over 2 bad years.

I just don’t think there’s any excuse for Iowa State to be at the bottom of the big 12 two out of three years with loosing records. I also think there’s no excuse for us to not only lose at Hilton on a regular basis, but get blown out at Hilton on a regular basis.
Prohm did a fine job for two years with Freds players. To me, last year was a disappointment, with the exception of winning the big 12 tournament, which honestly was the saving grace of the season. For having a roster of NBA talent, we did not finish great in the big 12 reg season and a disappointing lost to a much lower seed team in the NCAA tourney.

 

[Macloney]

I just don’t think there’s any excuse for Iowa State to be at the bottom of the big 12 two out of three years with loosing records. I also think there’s no excuse for us to not only lose at Hilton on a regular basis, but get blown out at Hilton on a regular basis.
Prohm did a fine job for two years with Freds players. To me, last year was a disappointment, with the exception of winning the big 12 tournament, which honestly was the saving grace of the season. For having a roster of NBA talent, we did not finish great in the big 12 reg season and a disappointing lost to a much lower seed team in the NCAA tourney.

Okay, so you are stating that last year was a disappointment, but other posters have provided evidence that it was really wasn't. You also have the opinion that ISU Basketball should not have a "loosing" conference record and always win at home.

Your mention of Fred's players was also very telling. You hate Prohm and don't want him to be successful. That's alright, just don't act like it's anything different.

History shows a different story than your version of Iowa State basketball, but don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

All of this seems like a you issue.

 

[Cyfanisu]

Okay, so you are stating that last year was a disappointment, but other posters have provided evidence that it was really wasn't. You also have the opinion that ISU Basketball should not have a "loosing" conference record and always win at home.

Your mention of Fred's players was also very telling. You hate Prohm and don't want him to be successful. That's alright, just don't act like it's anything different.

History shows a different story than your version of Iowa State basketball, but don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

All of this seems like a you issue.

I didn’t say always win at home. I am fine with losing once, or even twice a year at Hilton. But to lose numerous games the past 3 years at Hilton is disappointing to say the least.
And I don’t hate prohm at all, I always cheer on Iowa State. I would never root for them to lose. I think everybody can agree that prohm is a nice person and can recruit players with potential. I said he did a fine job the first two years with Fred's players, and it’s true. Those were his best two years out of the five that he’s been here.

 

[Sigmapolis]

A close game in the first half? Not a huge deal...so long as it's relatively short and CSP doesn't 'trust his gut' and keeps him out while the other team goes on a huge run.

A close game late? Uproar is warranted.

Those possessions are still only going to be marginally better than a turnover.

 

[rochclone]

Okay, so you are stating that last year was a disappointment, but other posters have provided evidence that it was really wasn't. You also have the opinion that ISU Basketball should not have a "loosing" conference record and always win at home.

Your mention of Fred's players was also very telling. You hate Prohm and don't want him to be successful. That's alright, just don't act like it's anything different.

History shows a different story than your version of Iowa State basketball, but don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

All of this seems like a you issue.

It’s not a “you” issue it is a collective “us” Iowa State issue. There is little doubt that keeping Prohm is the easier path after 2021-22 but I think people have to acknowledged that it is at least troubling to have two rebuilds in three seasons.
I think a relevant question is how many years of missing the NCAA tournament in a row should be acceptable for “you” based upon CSP accomplishments to this point?