***Official 2023 Chicago Cubs Thread***

[Clark]

We'll lowball Ohtani, too, just to complete the picture.

Yep. The Cubs aren't getting Ohtani. They've had several opportunities to hand out huge contracts the last couple of years and balked at the asking price. Now I'm supposed to believe they're willing to hand out an amount much bigger than those contracts?

The concerning thing is their treatment of Stroman is sounds a lot like their treatment of Bryant, Rizzo, Baez, etc.

 

[whatthewhat]

Yep. The Cubs aren't getting Ohtani. They've had several opportunities to hand out huge contracts the last couple of years and balked at the asking price. Now I'm supposed to believe they're willing to hand out an amount much bigger than those contracts?

The concerning thing is their treatment of Stroman is sounds a lot like their treatment of Bryant, Rizzo, Baez, etc.

Why does this narrative about Bryant, Rizzo and Baez continue to be peddled? The Cubs' decision not to commit long-term to these guys has been correct. None of these guys have been worth the contract that the Cubs offered each of them that the player turned down.

As for Ohtani, the team that signs him has to be willing to be over the salary cap every year Ohtani is in his prime or they won't be able to compete because otherwise, Ohtani will represent too large a percentage of the team's payroll. The Cubs have never shown the willingness to exceed the cap on a regular basis. If they do exceed it, they look to reset their payroll to go below the cap to reset the penalty calculation. I agree, Ohtani will not be a Cub, unless it is when he is in his forties.

 

[Clark]

Why does this narrative about Bryant, Rizzo and Baez continue to be peddled? The Cubs' decision not to commit long-term to these guys has been correct. None of these guys have been worth the contract that the Cubs offered each of them that the player turned down.

As for Ohtani, the team that signs him has to be willing to be over the salary cap every year Ohtani is in his prime or they won't be able to compete because otherwise, Ohtani will represent too large a percentage of the team's payroll. The Cubs have never shown the willingness to exceed the cap on a regular basis. If they do exceed it, they look to reset their payroll to go below the cap to reset the penalty calculation. I agree, Ohtani will not be a Cub, unless it is when he is in his forties.

Their decision isn't the problem, it's the way the players feel they've been treated is the problem. Do you think those are the only guys in the league who didn't have their contracts renewed? The troubling part isn't that they didn't spend a billion dollars keeping that team together, the troubling part is that this organization continues to make their players feel like they are not valued.

 

[whatthewhat]

Their decision isn't the problem, it's the way the players feel they've been treated is the problem. Do you think those are the only guys in the league who didn't have their contracts renewed? The troubling part isn't that they didn't spend a billion dollars keeping that team together, the troubling part is that this organization continues to make their players feel like they are not valued.

If rumors are correct, Bryant was offered a $185 million seven year contract, Baez was offered a $168 million eight year contract, and Rizzo was offered a $70 million five year contract. I'm not sure how you can say any of those offers were indications of the Cubs not valuing their players. If the Cubs had signed those three guys to the contracts that the players turned down, Cubs fans would be comparing every one of the contracts to a Soriano/Heyward contract.

 

[Clark]

If rumors are correct, Bryant was offered a $185 million seven year contract, Baez was offered a $168 million eight year contract, and Rizzo was offered a $70 million five year contract. I'm not sure how you can say any of those offers were indications of the Cubs not valuing their players. If the Cubs had signed those three guys to the contracts that the players turned down, Cubs fans would be comparing every one of the contracts to a Soriano/Heyward contract.

Again, do you think those three are the only players that rejected contracts in their free agency year? Did you hear from any of the other free agents that had a problem with how their team did it?

It's not about the money, I don't know how else to explain it to you. There's something wrong with their negotiating process that makes their players feel bad. They need to change it.

Oh and by the way, it's not ok for a top 5 revenue team to be afraid to pay the luxury tax. It's a scam our billionaire owner uses to make maximize his profits.

 

[whatthewhat]

Again, do you think those three are the only players that rejected contracts in their free agency year? Did you hear from any of the other free agents that had a problem with how their team did it?

It's not about the money, I don't know how else to explain it to you. There's something wrong with their negotiating process that makes their players feel bad. They need to change it.

Oh and by the way, it's not ok for a top 5 revenue team to be afraid to pay the luxury tax. It's a scam our billionaire owner uses to make maximize his profits.

When you can provide a measurement of "feelings", let me know. I'd like to see where the Cubs rank.

As to your comment about the top 5 revenue team. I didn't offer my opinion on the Cubs' ownership spending. I simply stated that the ownership has a pattern to how they spend. They have owned the team long enough to provide fans with an idea of what to expect. Until that pattern changes, fans shouldn't be surprised by their unwillingness to regularly spend over the salary cap. You don't have to like it, but you should expect it.

 

[CYdTracked]

If rumors are correct, Bryant was offered a $185 million seven year contract, Baez was offered a $168 million eight year contract, and Rizzo was offered a $70 million five year contract. I'm not sure how you can say any of those offers were indications of the Cubs not valuing their players. If the Cubs had signed those three guys to the contracts that the players turned down, Cubs fans would be comparing every one of the contracts to a Soriano/Heyward contract.

Exactly, the Cubs had offers to those 3 higher than what they actually got on the market and yet somehow the players thought that they were being low balled. Another difference too is that Stroman currently is performing like a Cy Young candidate while all 3 of those guys were underperforming leading up to their free agency. I've been long done with moving on from those 3 and it turns out the front office made the right move doing so as well. Had they overpaid for those 3 the Cubs would be in a world of hurt right now with payroll and still not winning anything.

Hoping there is something going on behind the scenes with Stroman but it could be that he just wants to hit free agency too and see what kind of offers he can get so it might not be just the Cubs front office that can't get a deal done. Even if Stroman wants to stay in Chicago at this point with the way he season has gone I think he's probably best served to see what teams he can get in a bidding war for him in the offseason and not just limit his offer to the Cubs. I does him no harm saying things like he wants to stay with the Cubs as it's just negotiating tactics to see if they will throw him an offer now that is too good to pass up. I don't see that happening though, they probably have a number in mind and will do what they did with SS this past offseason which is be in on the top guys and let the market play out until they can sign one of their preferred targets at the price they are comfortable with. Early returns right now on Swanson looks like the right fit. He's 4th in WAR for all MLB SS at 2.8 while Bogaerts is 10th at 1.7, and Correa and Turner are not even top 20 at the moment at 0.8. All 3 got bigger deals than Swanson. Will see how those play out over the long haul.

 

[CycloneErik]

Exactly, the Cubs had offers to those 3 higher than what they actually got on the market and yet somehow the players thought that they were being low balled. Another difference too is that Stroman currently is performing like a Cy Young candidate while all 3 of those guys were underperforming leading up to their free agency. I've been long done with moving on from those 3 and it turns out the front office made the right move doing so as well. Had they overpaid for those 3 the Cubs would be in a world of hurt right now with payroll and still not winning anything.

Hoping there is something going on behind the scenes with Stroman but it could be that he just wants to hit free agency too and see what kind of offers he can get so it might not be just the Cubs front office that can't get a deal done. Even if Stroman wants to stay in Chicago at this point with the way he season has gone I think he's probably best served to see what teams he can get in a bidding war for him in the offseason and not just limit his offer to the Cubs. I does him no harm saying things like he wants to stay with the Cubs as it's just negotiating tactics to see if they will throw him an offer now that is too good to pass up. I don't see that happening though, they probably have a number in mind and will do what they did with SS this past offseason which is be in on the top guys and let the market play out until they can sign one of their preferred targets at the price they are comfortable with. Early returns right now on Swanson looks like the right fit. He's 4th in WAR for all MLB SS at 2.8 while Bogaerts is 10th at 1.7, and Correa and Turner are not even top 20 at the moment at 0.8. All 3 got bigger deals than Swanson. Will see how those play out over the long haul.

Maybe the Cubs made those offers. That came out a whole lot like deflection at the time.
If a franchise can't bargain with any of its stars, it might not be every star.

 

[whatthewhat]

Maybe the Cubs made those offers. That came out a whole lot like deflection at the time.
If a franchise can't bargain with any of its stars, it might not be every star.

Who knows? The rumored offers were reported prior to any of them signing a contract, so it isn't like the Cubs waited to see what they got before floating their extension offer. Rizzo has been interviewed and has said he thinks he can make more than what the Cubs offered, if he lasts that long. Maybe he will, but I don't think it is a given at this point.

 

[CycloneErik]

So, when do we sweep the Pirates again?

 

[ScottyP]

Still not sold on this team, but definitely enjoying the hot streak. I think Cincy is gearing up to run away with this due to all of the young talent they have. I think the Cubs wind up third in the division. I am still shocked at how poorly St. Louis is playing. As a Cubs fan, the Cardinals need to keep Marmol.

 

[Clonefan32]

Still not sold on this team, but definitely enjoying the hot streak. I think Cincy is gearing up to run away with this due to all of the young talent they have. I think the Cubs wind up third in the division. I am still shocked at how poorly St. Louis is playing. As a Cubs fan, the Cardinals need to keep Marmol.

Give me a reason to still care in September and I'll be happy.

 

[CYdTracked]

Still not sold on this team, but definitely enjoying the hot streak. I think Cincy is gearing up to run away with this due to all of the young talent they have. I think the Cubs wind up third in the division. I am still shocked at how poorly St. Louis is playing. As a Cubs fan, the Cardinals need to keep Marmol.

Yeah I would like to just put the Cards out of their misery in London but the Cubs can sometimes play like crap against bad teams they should beat so we'll see. Next few series after that are going to be tough. 3 vs Philly 3 vs Cleveland, 4 @ Milwaukee and 3 @ Yankees leading up to the All-Star break. I'm like you I'm not sold on this team that they can make the playoffs and stretch leading up to the break is going to be telling if they actually are putting a nice streak together or did they just catch some teams going through a rough patch at the right time.

 

[1UNI2ISU]

We'll lowball Ohtani, too, just to complete the picture.

Oh, they're totally going to do that.

They're going to offer like 9/$450M and spin it to 'we offered the largest contract in baseball history but couldn't get it done' as he signs for 12/$750M with the Dodgers.

 

[1UNI2ISU]

Still not sold on this team, but definitely enjoying the hot streak. I think Cincy is gearing up to run away with this due to all of the young talent they have. I think the Cubs wind up third in the division. I am still shocked at how poorly St. Louis is playing. As a Cubs fan, the Cardinals need to keep Marmol.

That Reds pitching staff is awful. They're going to come back down to earth and their schedule turns on them hardcore coming up.

85 wins the division easily.

 

[Clonefan32]

Oh, they're totally going to do that.

They're going to offer like 9/$450M and spin it to 'we offered the largest contract in baseball history but couldn't get it done' as he signs for 12/$750M with the Dodgers.

Bingo. They're going to pinch pennies under the guise of being players in the Ohtani market only to lowball him and put that newfound cash into building a hookah bar in the left field bleachers or something.

 

[ScottyP]

That Reds pitching staff is awful. They're going to come back down to earth and their schedule turns on them hardcore coming up.

85 wins the division easily.

just win the division and get hot during the playoffs could take them to the World Series.

 

[tman24]

This is the kind of stuff that ****** me off with the front office. Stroman is a top 10 pitcher in the league right now and wants to stay. But they don't want to pay him so they're going to act like we need the space to make a run at Ohtani, which will inevitably not work.

A big market team that wants to spend like a medium market.

Medium is being generous.

 

[Cyforce]

Medium is being generous.

At least I think we'll be buyers this year. Not to say if they can find a taker for Mancini, wisdom or even Taillon they wouldn't pull the trigger to clear salary for next year.

I expect they'll be looking for a starter and a reliever or two plus a corner infielder with a plus bat. ( Mervis hopefully can fix some things and fill that role as well but if we're buyers they'll be looking for insurance)

Stroman, Steele, Smyly and Hendricks is a pretty good playoff rotation but a good rental wouldn't hurt.

 

[CYdTracked]

At least I think we'll be buyers this year. Not to say if they can find a taker for Mancini, wisdom or even Taillon they wouldn't pull the trigger to clear salary for next year.

I expect they'll be looking for a starter and a reliever or two plus a corner infielder with a plus bat. ( Mervis hopefully can fix some things and fill that role as well but if we're buyers they'll be looking for insurance)

Stroman, Steele, Smyly and Hendricks is a pretty good playoff rotation but a good rental wouldn't hurt.

No one is going to trade for these guys given their lack of production this year and in Mancini and Taillon's case their salary as well. Wisdom probably would not even be on the big league roster on a lot of teams. Mancini has a $7 mil player option for 2024 that unfortunately I think he will pick up because he probably can't get that in free agency right now. Wisdom still has minor league options left so makes me wonder if they send him to Iowa after his IL stint as he's just been awful in May and June.

If the Cubs decide to buy at the deadline I'd be surprised if they are in on anyone that would cost them a top 10 or 20 prospect in their system right now. Would probably be targeting some cheap relievers and help at one or both of the corner infield positions. If Tauchman keeps up the production and they hang onto Bellinger and keep him at 1B then 3B and maybe someone to DH and be a 4th OF would make sense but I don't see the Cubs being big spenders at the deadline if they decide to be buyers because they don't want to weaken the farm system for a shot at the playoffs this year.

On the flip side if they were to fall off again and have a stretch where they lose 7 of 10 and fall over 5 games back from the division they could be right back into possible sellers category. Where they are at in the standing at the All-Star break probably will give some indication what direction they may be leaning towards.