MLB: Goodbye to Chief Wahoo

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RoseClone

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I wonder when enough time passes and cultures are very much mixed (hundreds of years or more) if the PC culture will go away. Hardly anyone would be a 100% anything and I'd feel like you wouldn't be offended by culturally exaggerated cartoons/mascots. Or we'll be so PC that no one will communicate in fear of offending the nearest robot.

Not if there are still politicians pushing buttons and pulling strings from behind the curtain giving their sheep marching orders.
 

cyclones500

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Hoping to infuse a little depth-perception from outside my Anglo-centric perspective. (I had an extended intro to this, but I'll forego that and go directly to program).

Some of the most concise explanations I’ve read explaining a push to eliminate native imagery and stereotyping through mascots and nicknames comes from perspectives from writers within legitimate cultural heritage, who also happen to, you know, be Actual Real People in the here and now — and U.S. citizens.

From 2016:
The great failure of the Indian mascot debate? Thinking of it only as racism

2
014 CNN: Native Americans: We’re not your mascots

From 2013, with some select excerpts:

Native American mascots: Pride or Prejudice?
  • “The Indian you see most often in Washington, D.C., is at a football game - at the expense of real Indians, real history, real culture. The petty stereotype has become expected.”
  • “Native Americans feel offended, they feel hurt. They feel their identity is being trivialized,” says Carol Spindel, who wrote “Dancing at Halftime,” a book that explored native mascots.
  • “If we do a census of the population in our collective imagination, imaginary Indians are one of the largest demographic groups,” Spindel writes in her book.
    “Many Natives said they are rarely afforded the luxury of seeing their experiences accurately depicted in popular culture, school curriculum or national policy. They regularly face misunderstandings about their culture and history.”
There was another excellent opinion piece I saw about a decade ago, written by a college student at FSU who was of NA descent (not a Seminole) describing the FSU tomahawk-chop, I can't seem to track down the article online, wish I could. A memorable portion of it was along the lines of "I'd probably gleefully doing the chop right alongside them, if my people weren't continuing to be systematically oppressed..."
 
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CyGuy5

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Agreed -- still miffed they went with Washington Nationals instead of Washington Grays.

I think it was the Columbus Buckeyes in the Negro League, though. Cleveland seemed to have had the Cleveland Browns, Elites, Hornets, Tigers, and Tate Stars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_National_League_(1920–31)

Cleveland Blues or Cleveland Spiders still draw from their history, however.

I never understood why not the Kansas City Monarchs for the same reason, too.

Royals and monarchs are basically the same thing
 

Sigmapolis

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Royals and monarchs are basically the same thing

One was the name of the Negro League team, and one was not.

The Kansas City Royals are named after the American Royal, a livestock show each year in Kansas City, not after the Kansas City Monarchs.
 

Knownothing

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Nov 22, 2006
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As a kid, I loved the Washington Redskins and Indians. As an adult, my position has evolved.



I believe the National Congress of American Indians among other native groups has been advocating for this since at least 1968, but lets diminish their input.



Debate is good and healthy and helps move a society forward. Politics infuse all aspects of life and sports are no exception. As I've noted before, Jack Trice's presence on the field was inherently political in light of politicians of the day agitating to keep the races separate. I'm sure people at the time cried foul and advocated to keep him sidelined, because they didn't want all this political crap sullying the game.



Cat Stevens had a good rebuttal further down.

I will note that some other sports teams have nailed this tricky balance, while the Indians and Redskins are just beyond ridiculous at this point. Miami (Ohio) University added a great logo that honored the Miami tribe, in partnership with them. See it here:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...opts-new-logo-honoring-miami-tribe/776254001/

Would you ask the NAACP what level of racism/stereotype is ok with a Sambo caricature or a "magical negro" trope then rail against them if they demonstrated an unwillingness to find a common ground in your "respect" of their culture?



Through American history, native groups have suffered from mass genocide and subjugation and still suffer some of the highest poverty rates in America. The Indians were not named because of "the Tribes in Ohio and them being strong." Much research has been done into the psychological harm that stereotypical behavior and tropes cause, especially in impressionable children. It also has socioeconomic impacts on adults.

Your "history" of the Fighting Irish nickname is also blatantly wrong. I believe four of the six originating priests of Notre Dame were Irish and the school was originally overwhelmingly Irish, thus the Irish school essentially named themselves. Also, just like any other team name of the era, they were the Fighting Irish, just like the Fighting Tigers, Fighting Cyclones, etc. It was a turn of phrase.

But it's good to know that you aren't offended by the logo of a mythical creature--the leprechaun. I'm sure the leprechaun people appreciate your support.

I’ll just except that you think it’s ok to offend us Irish people. Glad the Irish have never had to deal with any genecide or anything like that. SLavery and War. Haha. Good one
 

Macloney

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Feb 28, 2014
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People like to be offended at stuff. Even when it's not offensive. These Indian Logo's are not offense to most Native Americans. I am not offended by the Fighting Irish Logo or name and I am Irish. I don't think it honors us as Irish people and it plays into a stereotype about us getting drunk and into fights. However, oh well it's not a big deal. They named that team based on us being knows as fighters. Just like The Indians were named that because of the Tribes in Ohio and them being strong.

This is all just politically correct crap. The only people who are offended are white people who like to be offened at everything for every thing that happens. They have done polls and most Native Amercians can give a rip less about a team or logo being about them.

I would have guessed that you were American, but if you say you're Irish then I guess you are.

All kidding aside, a nationality and a race are two completely different things.
 

Knownothing

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I would have guessed that you were American, but if you say you're Irish then I guess you are.

All kidding aside, a nationality and a race are two completely different things.

Yes they are but you can offend a Nation. I am American and you are right. However, Grandpa came over from Ireland back in 1925. Then joined the Navy in 1942.

At the same time is it OK to make a mockery of the Irish. I will never forget going to a bar and hearing people order Black and Tans without having any idea why they were called black and tans and how bad that was.
 

Macloney

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Yes they are but you can offend a Nation. I am American and you are right. However, Grandpa came over from Ireland back in 1925. Then joined the Navy in 1942.

At the same time is it OK to make a mockery of the Irish. I will never forget going to a bar and hearing people order Black and Tans without having any idea why they were called black and tans and how bad that was.

If that offends you, you might have a little soul searching to do.
 

Bader

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Yes they are but you can offend a Nation. I am American and you are right. However, Grandpa came over from Ireland back in 1925. Then joined the Navy in 1942.

At the same time is it OK to make a mockery of the Irish. I will never forget going to a bar and hearing people order Black and Tans without having any idea why they were called black and tans and how bad that was.
Referring to a pale ale/stout as a black and tan goes back farther than the war for Independence. Irish people get (understandably) irritated when someone associates the phrase "black and tan" with Irish heritage, but the name of the drink does not come from the British military
 

Knownothing

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If that offends you, you might have a little soul searching to do.

I am saying this stuff does not offend me. I am saying if a baseball teams name offends someone. They have a little soul searching to do. That other stuff is way more offensive in my opinion than a baseball team name.

Bottom line is this. There are things that everyone finds offensive. A baseball teams logo is hardly something for the Inidans nation to get upset about. Just like the Notre Dame Logo is hardly something to get worked up about.
 

Cat Stevens

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I am saying this stuff does not offend me. I am saying if a baseball teams name offends someone. They have a little soul searching to do. That other stuff is way more offensive in my opinion than a baseball team name.

Bottom line is this. There are things that everyone finds offensive. A baseball teams logo is hardly something for the Inidans nation to get upset about. Just like the Notre Dame Logo is hardly something to get worked up about.


So, as you self victimized through bs, you feel it’s ok to use offensive characteristics of a people that have been oppressed for centuries?

Just want to make sure we all know what your blather really means
 

shagcarpetjesus

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So it’s racist enough that the logo is no longer appropriate to appear on the uniform, but not quite racist enough for the change to happen immediately (the removal begins in 2019). Gotta sell the hell outta that Chief Wahoo merch before it goes away I guess!
 

3TrueFans

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I am saying this stuff does not offend me. I am saying if a baseball teams name offends someone. They have a little soul searching to do. That other stuff is way more offensive in my opinion than a baseball team name.

Bottom line is this. There are things that everyone finds offensive. A baseball teams logo is hardly something for the Inidans nation to get upset about. Just like the Notre Dame Logo is hardly something to get worked up about.
Are you offended that they're offended?
 

Knownothing

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So, as you self victimized through bs, you feel it’s ok to use offensive characteristics of a people that have been oppressed for centuries?

Just want to make sure we all know what your blather really means


Im not self victimizing at all. I am just wondering why everyone is so concerened about one logo and not the others? Why are you offended about the Chief but not the Notre Dame Fighting Irish guy. It just makes no sense at all. Except it does make sense. It's because Notre Dame is not a Minority.

Not sure why you think I am victimizing myself when I clearly clearly clearly stated that I am not offended by any of it.
 

Kagavi

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I’ll just except that you think it’s ok to offend us Irish people.

Where is the offense?

So it’s racist enough that the logo is no longer appropriate to appear on the uniform, but not quite racist enough for the change to happen immediately (the removal begins in 2019). Gotta sell the hell outta that Chief Wahoo merch before it goes away I guess!

Exactly. Gotta love the hypocrisy.

Im not self victimizing at all. I am just wondering why everyone is so concerened about one logo and not the others? Why are you offended about the Chief but not the Notre Dame Fighting Irish guy. It just makes no sense at all. Except it does make sense. It's because Notre Dame is not a Minority.

Is this even a real debate? Am I being Punk'd?

Chief Wahoo = outdated stereotype of REAL people.

Notre Dame Leprechaun = a, uhhh, fictional mythical character.

Along with the origins I previously discussed, the Notre Dame website talks a bit more about the Fighting Irish name and how one of its origins was with Irish immigrant soldiers "who fought for the Union during the Civil War in what became called the Irish Brigade, including three regiments from New York." That regiment's chaplain became the third president of Notre Dame. (SOURCE)
 

MeowingCows

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So it’s racist enough that the logo is no longer appropriate to appear on the uniform, but not quite racist enough for the change to happen immediately (the removal begins in 2019). Gotta sell the hell outta that Chief Wahoo merch before it goes away I guess!
Actually, they have to keep Wahoo around for merch...and trademark reasons. He's not permanently gone, just slightly harder to find.
 

Kagavi

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I’ll just except that you think it’s ok to offend us Irish people ...

... I clearly clearly clearly stated that I am not offended ...

I love a good debate online, because it gets easier to pin people down on positions that make no sense.

For those against the removal, I guess I look at it this way, that if the people you are "honoring" don't like the way you are doing it, why persist? Why let the division wallow? Is empathy really that foreign?
 
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Knownothing

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Where is the offense?



Exactly. Gotta love the hypocrisy.



Is this even a real debate? Am I being Punk'd?

Chief Wahoo = outdated stereotype of REAL people.

Notre Dame Leprechaun = a, uhhh, fictional mythical character.

Along with the origins I previously discussed, the Notre Dame website talks a bit more about the Fighting Irish name and how one of its origins was with Irish immigrant soldiers "who fought for the Union during the Civil War in what became called the Irish Brigade, including three regiments from New York." That regiment's chaplain became the third president of Notre Dame. (SOURCE)

Didn’t realize the goofy looking baseball mascot was real. I change my stance then