For the Lebron haters...

[JohnnyFive]

Arguable. I would agree Jordan is the best to have played thus far, but I think you could make an argument for others. I also think LBJ could end up being a better player when its all said and done.

Moot point.

LBJ might have the passing vision of Magic, the body of Karl Malone and the athleticism of Doctor J, but he has the loyalty of Judas.

Bottom line: the best want to prove they're the best. MJ did it with his own team, not by joining one of his rivals to make a pack of superfriends. Also, MJ was 6-for-6 in NBA Finals appearances...LBJ is 1-for-3.

Game. Set. Match. Don't make me break out the Jason Segel clip from Bad Teacher. "That's the only argument I need, Shawn!"

 

[GMackey32]

Pippen was unknown to the general public. Nobody was watching Central Arkansas. His name came up in previews and such, I think, but all people really remember from stuff like that is "Oh, the kid from Central Arkansas."

Pippen was a victory for the Bulls and their scouting. People thought he could be solid or good, but nobody really forecasted what he turned into.

Your point about Cleveland is still solid.

Huge victory for the Bulls, complete and utter failure for the SuperSonics. Sonics drafted Pippen at #5 and the Bulls selected Olden Polynice (who?) at #8. Then the Bulls shipped Polynice and future draft picks to Seattle for Pippen.

 

[CycloneErik]

Moot point.

LBJ might have the passing vision of Magic, the body of Karl Malone and the athleticism of Doctor J, but he has the loyalty of Judas.

Bottom line: the best want to prove they're the best. MJ did it with his own team, not by joining one of his rivals to make a pack of superfriends. Also, MJ was 6-for-6 in NBA Finals appearances...LBJ is 1-for-3.

Game. Set. Match. Don't make me break out the Jason Segel clip from Bad Teacher. "That's the only argument I need, Shawn!"

Lew Alcindor switched teams. Never a big deal.

LeBron didn't need to show loyalty to a team that chose not to improve.

 

[HFCS]

Moot point.

LBJ might have the passing vision of Magic, the body of Karl Malone and the athleticism of Doctor J, but he has the loyalty of Judas.

Bottom line: the best want to prove they're the best. MJ did it with his own team, not by joining one of his rivals to make a pack of superfriends. Also, MJ was 6-for-6 in NBA Finals appearances...LBJ is 1-for-3.

Game. Set. Match. Don't make me break out the Jason Segel clip from Bad Teacher. "That's the only argument I need, Shawn!"

A record setting scoring drop of 13 ppg in a Finals means much more to me than 1 for 3 vs. 6 for 6.

I don't really care anymore that they played GM at being Superfriends. The most annoying thing is that they can talk about his greatness and Wade can call them the greatest trio to ever play the game, but if anyone brings up obvious shortcomings and failures they're "haters". It comes with the territory of the talent he possesses and all the ego and hype they surround themselves with. LeBron alone decided to take Jordan's powder slapping ritual and turned it into a bigger spectacle, he played right into it all. I don't see any other players doing something like that upon entering the league and if they did it would be a hilarious joke. LeBron and everyone else knew he had the potential to deliver on GOAT hype and he SPRINTED right into it.

This year he delivered on the hype he happily bathed in for 9 years, it doesn't erase 2011 if you want to compare him to the likes of Jordan and Russel. Of course compared to almost anyone LeBron's 2011 is still INSANE...it's just when you chose those standards you chose that level of criticism as well.

If Durant continues being who he has been his first few seasons and never wins a title or only wins one or two few people will spend much energy disliking him. There are obvious reasons for that anyone who doesn't have a chub for LeBron can see.

 

[Mr Janny]

A record setting scoring drop of 13 ppg in a Finals means much more to me than 1 for 3 vs. 6 for 6.

I don't really care anymore that they played GM at being Superfriends. The most annoying thing is that they can talk about his greatness and Wade can call them the greatest trio to ever play the game, but if anyone brings up obvious shortcomings and failures they're "haters". It comes with the territory of the talent he possesses and all the ego and hype they surround themselves with. LeBron alone decided to take Jordan's powder slapping ritual and turned it into a bigger spectacle, he played right into it all. I don't see any other players doing something like that upon entering the league and if they did it would be a hilarious joke. LeBron and everyone else knew he had the potential to deliver on GOAT hype and he SPRINTED right into it.

This year he delivered on the hype he happily bathed in for 9 years, it doesn't erase 2011 if you want to compare him to the likes of Jordan and Russel. Of course compared to almost anyone LeBron's 2011 is still INSANE...it's just when you chose those standards you chose that level of criticism as well.

If Durant continues being who he has been his first few seasons and never wins a title or only wins one or two few people will spend much energy disliking him. There are obvious reasons for that anyone who doesn't have a chub for LeBron can see.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Moot point.

LBJ might have the passing vision of Magic, the body of Karl Malone and the athleticism of Doctor J, but he has the loyalty of Judas.

Bottom line: the best want to prove they're the best. MJ did it with his own team, not by joining one of his rivals to make a pack of superfriends. Also, MJ was 6-for-6 in NBA Finals appearances...LBJ is 1-for-3.

Game. Set. Match. Don't make me break out the Jason Segel clip from Bad Teacher. "That's the only argument I need, Shawn!"

Do you think Jordan would have gone through 10 years of the Bulls doing nothing to win? Doubtful. They actually made a move. A huge move. Jordan also wasn't getting to the Finals by himself. In their early years, those two aren't that different.

 

[Tre4ISU]

A record setting scoring drop of 13 ppg in a Finals means much more to me than 1 for 3 vs. 6 for 6.

I don't really care anymore that they played GM at being Superfriends. The most annoying thing is that they can talk about his greatness and Wade can call them the greatest trio to ever play the game, but if anyone brings up obvious shortcomings and failures they're "haters". It comes with the territory of the talent he possesses and all the ego and hype they surround themselves with. LeBron alone decided to take Jordan's powder slapping ritual and turned it into a bigger spectacle, he played right into it all. I don't see any other players doing something like that upon entering the league and if they did it would be a hilarious joke. LeBron and everyone else knew he had the potential to deliver on GOAT hype and he SPRINTED right into it.

This year he delivered on the hype he happily bathed in for 9 years, it doesn't erase 2011 if you want to compare him to the likes of Jordan and Russel. Of course compared to almost anyone LeBron's 2011 is still INSANE...it's just when you chose those standards you chose that level of criticism as well.

If Durant continues being who he has been his first few seasons and never wins a title or only wins one or two few people will spend much energy disliking him. There are obvious reasons for that anyone who doesn't have a chub for LeBron can see.

So what about Wade? You mention LeBrons horrible 2011. How about Wade throwing up the best individual performance in a Finals in 05? Better than anything Jordan ever did in a single finals series. Does that make him better? I mean, after all, you are discounting LeBron for one series which is utterly stupid.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Oh and Durant will be Nowitzki. He will do outrageous things on the court, be a fantastic scorer, bad defender, never learn to make anyone better and win a title or two in his career. OKC will choose him over Westbrook and Westbrook will be gone in a few years. Durants skillset can't carry a team. It was proven in this series.

 

[rdmoon12]

I love LeBron and I am a Cavaliers fan. I would have done what he did in a heart beat. The Cavs surrounded him with no one in 7 years they only drafted 7 players. Also, he never left his ‘hometown’ Akron was his hometown not Cleveland. He has stated everyone from Akron and himself hated Cleveland. It is like if Iowa City had a professional NBA team would you fill obligated to play for them. If you believe that you should hate Kirk Hinrich, Harrison Barnes, Collison, etc. If your best friend was playing in Miami you would choose him over Cleveland. He lived up his contract. Also, the man is an absolute beast.

 

[Lyon309Cy]

So you don't like the Celtics either, correct?

Everyone says Jordan never would have done that. Maybe you're right, but he didn't have to. A lot of guys have bailed to better teams after a stretch of not winning. Maybe it wasn't to the degree these guys did but I don't understand why it should be held against them.

Correct, I don't like the Celtics either. KG was one of my favorite players, not anymore. It is curious how those three more or less got a free pass, whereas James and Bosh have been so heavily criticized. Maybe it has something to do with going to a tradition rich franchise that happens to be right down the road from ESPN. There was some difference, as the Celtics big 3 were all towards the end of their prime years, and none of them had just carried a team to the finals all on their own like Wade and James both have done.

Jordan was a different type of animal, Kobe's as close as the NBA has come to seeing that type of ruthless competitor. That's really the biggest difference between Jordan and everyone who's come after him. I'm not naive enough to say no one will ever be as good as Jordan. I just don't think winning one manufactured championship means Lebron should be in the conversation. Jordan didn't have to bail to a better team because the Bulls were sharp enough to fleece Seattle for Pippen. The Cavs did everything they could to demonstrate they were building a winner. They were the best team in the NBA for Lebron's last year, and maybe the year before, they just ran into an experienced team that understood how to close. Rather than learn from that lesson and grow as a player, like he did from last year to this year, he looked for a proven winner he could lean on when things got hard. Jordan came up short early in his career and grew from it rather than look for an easier way. Lebron may have turned that corner the way Jordan did, but it's too early to say that right now. Lebron's legacy will be determined 10 years from now, and isn't something any of us, or him, should be concerned about.

 

[rholtgraves]

So what about Wade? You mention LeBrons horrible 2011. How about Wade throwing up the best individual performance in a Finals in 05? Better than anything Jordan ever did in a single finals series. Does that make him better? I mean, after all, you are discounting LeBron for one series which is utterly stupid.

Pretty sure you must have never watched any of Jordan's finals performance to thing that Wades performance is better than any Series Jordan had.

When you say things like this it is hard to take you seriously.

 

[JohnnyFive]

No doubt LBJ is the most physically-gifted player in the game, and maybe ever (I would make an argument for Hakeem Olajuwon, but that's just me).

All I know is, Jordan wouldn't have joined Magic in LA or busted out a "not one, not two, not three, not four..." speech when he hadn't even won one yet. Is it LBJ's fault that Cleveland's GM never got him help? No. Is it LBJ's fault that he instantly took the Cavs from bottom-dweller to eastern-conference contender, which inadvertently prevented Cleveland from ever drafting that high again? No.

But don't make it sound like Jordan won his first few titles with a juggernaut roster. Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright and BJ Armstrong were their third, fourth and fifth-best players.

 

[CycloneErik]

No doubt LBJ is the most physically-gifted player in the game, and maybe ever (I would make an argument for Hakeem Olajuwon, but that's just me).

All I know is, Jordan wouldn't have joined Magic in LA or busted out a "not one, not two, not three, not four..." speech when he hadn't even won one yet. Is it LBJ's fault that Cleveland's GM never got him help? No. Is it LBJ's fault that he instantly took the Cavs from bottom-dweller to eastern-conference contender, which inadvertently prevented Cleveland from ever drafting that high again? No.

But don't make it sound like Jordan won his first few titles with a juggernaut roster. Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright and BJ Armstrong were their third, fourth and fifth-best players.

Craig Hodges, Jon Paxson, Steve Kerr, Bobby Hansen.
Jordan always had solid three point shooters to spread the floor. Some could even play defense. Not like Pippen and Jordan, but they could play some defense.
I don't remember many guards in Cleveland, but who was there to help LeBron on that end?
Verajo? (spelled wrong, I know), Ilgauskis? The Cavs were a much worse team around LeBron than the Bulls around Jordan.

Most of the Jordannaires weren't spectacular

 

[CyJack13]

No doubt LBJ is the most physically-gifted player in the game, and maybe ever (I would make an argument for Hakeem Olajuwon, but that's just me).

All I know is, Jordan wouldn't have joined Magic in LA or busted out a "not one, not two, not three, not four..." speech when he hadn't even won one yet. Is it LBJ's fault that Cleveland's GM never got him help? No. Is it LBJ's fault that he instantly took the Cavs from bottom-dweller to eastern-conference contender, which inadvertently prevented Cleveland from ever drafting that high again? No.

But don't make it sound like Jordan won his first few titles with a juggernaut roster. Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright and BJ Armstrong were their third, fourth and fifth-best players.

Does that speech bother people only because LeBron hadn't won a title at the time? For instance, if he said it now would it be acceptable?

 

[chuckd4735]

Not 1. Not 2. Not 3. Not 4. Not 5. Not 6. Not 7. I have 8 reasons to think that he is a cocky player.

Again, he said this at a freaking pep-rally to pump up the audience inside the American Airlines Arena, who were, you guessed it, Miami Heat fans. The rally wasn't broadcast on national TV.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Pretty sure you must have never watched any of Jordan's finals performance to thing that Wades performance is better than any Series Jordan had.

When you say things like this it is hard to take you seriously.

35,8,3.3,2.7, 47% in a slow paced game. When they went down 0-2 he went of for 43, 36, 42 and 36. That was the best finals performance of all time.

No doubt LBJ is the most physically-gifted player in the game, and maybe ever (I would make an argument for Hakeem Olajuwon, but that's just me).

All I know is, Jordan wouldn't have joined Magic in LA or busted out a "not one, not two, not three, not four..." speech when he hadn't even won one yet. Is it LBJ's fault that Cleveland's GM never got him help? No. Is it LBJ's fault that he instantly took the Cavs from bottom-dweller to eastern-conference contender, which inadvertently prevented Cleveland from ever drafting that high again? No.

But don't make it sound like Jordan won his first few titles with a juggernaut roster. Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright and BJ Armstrong were their third, fourth and fifth-best players.

But he did have Pippen. You can't just throw him out. That second best guy is very important especially when he could do the things Pippen could. BJ Armstrong equal Mo Williams who was probably the best thing LeBron had.

Craig Hodges, Jon Paxson, Steve Kerr, Bobby Hansen.
Jordan always had solid three point shooters to spread the floor. Some could even play defense. Not like Pippen and Jordan, but they could play some defense.
I don't remember many guards in Cleveland, but who was there to help LeBron on that end?
Verajo? (spelled wrong, I know), Ilgauskis? The Cavs were a much worse team around LeBron than the Bulls around Jordan.

Most of the Jordannaires weren't spectacular

Mo "I'll either score 30 or 8" Williams. He was closer to 8 most of the time.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Again, he said this at a freaking pep-rally to pump up the audience inside the American Airlines Arena, who were, you guessed it, Miami Heat fans. The rally wasn't broadcast on national TV.

Yeah, if CPR said the same thing about B12 championships I am guessing people would like that.

 

[chuckd4735]

Yeah, if CPR said the same thing about B12 championships I am guessing people would like that.

He has...maybe not talking about multiple ones, but I recall him "guaranteeing" one in the Texas post-game rally.

 

[JohnnyFive]

Craig Hodges, Jon Paxson, Steve Kerr, Bobby Hansen.
Jordan always had solid three point shooters to spread the floor. Some could even play defense. Not like Pippen and Jordan, but they could play some defense.
I don't remember many guards in Cleveland, but who was there to help LeBron on that end?
Verajo? (spelled wrong, I know), Ilgauskis? The Cavs were a much worse team around LeBron than the Bulls around Jordan.

Most of the Jordannaires weren't spectacular

Other than Pippen over Hughes, I think it's a lot closer than you think.

Jordan's first finals team 90-91
Top contributors other than Jordan
Pippen 17.8 pts, 7.3 rebs, 6.2 assts
Grant 12.8 pts, 8.4 rebs
Cartwright 9.6 pts, 6.2 rebs
Armstrong 8.8 pts
Paxson 8.7 pts, 42-96 3pters (.438)
King 5.5 pts
Hodges 5.0 pts, 44-115 3pters (.383)

LeBron's first finals team 06-07
Top contributors other than LBJ
Hughes 14.9 pts, 74-222 3pters (.333)
Illgauskas 11.9 pts, 7.7 rebs
Gooden 11.1 pts, 8.5 rebs
Pavlovoic 9.0 pts, 60-148 3pters (.405)
Marshall 7.0 pts, 95-271 3pters (.351)
Varajao 6.8 pts, 6.7 rebs
Damon Jones 6.6, 89-231 3pters (.385)

 

[rholtgraves]

35,8,3.3,2.7, 47% in a slow paced game. When they went down 0-2 he went of for 43, 36, 42 and 36. That was the best finals performance of all time.


.

Lets see. First finals appearance vs. the Lakers and defeats them in 5 games.

31.2 points 11.4 assists per game, 6.6 rebounds, 2.7 steals, 1.4 blocks .558 FG% .500 3pt FG%

There's more as well. 41 pg, 8.5 rbs, 6.3 assists vs the Suns.