Darian DeVries

[ISUChippewa]

You're the one insulting our intelligence because you dont understand why people were a little more forgiving about the UAB loss years later based on how that entire season and previous seasons played out.

People are more forgiving about the UAB loss because it happened under one of Ames, Iowa's all-time favorite residents and because of the hero worship that comes with that kind of status. It really is that simple, which doesn't make it any less unfair.

 

[Sigmapolis]

You're the one insulting our intelligence because you dont understand why people were a little more forgiving about the UAB loss years later based on how that entire season and previous seasons played out.

Both of those teams underperformed relative to their talent.

The Kane-Ejim team was never really a factor in the Big 12 race -- and it should have been. I give them a pass for what happened in March with the whole unfortunate thing with Georges' foot. :-(

The team the next year should have won the Big 12 and made a deep run in March given its talent.

Of the three, I would put the BDJ year as a much larger underachievement relative to the Shayok year.

 

[NoCreativity]

People are more forgiving about the UAB loss because it happened under one of Ames, Iowa's all-time favorite residents and because of the hero worship that comes with that kind of status. It really is that simple, which doesn't make it any less unfair.

I dont know how to make it blatantly more clear to you. Nobody was happy after the UAB loss, I was as pissed as Ive been since the Michigan State game in 2000. But years later when you take everything in context of what happened that entire year and the 3 years before that, its a little more forgiving, has nothing to do with the coach.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Maybe he would have crashed. We will never know. You are looking at it from a worst case scenario really. I think it is fair to say we would have taken a step back but to conclude we would be awful even had Hoiberg stayed is asinine. I think you have to judge Hoiberg with what we know. He had us going really really well. There was potential to take the next step. There was potential it could have crashed. Likely we would have remained a consistent top 25 team and had potential to make that next leap.

I have never thought the program was about to crash or something had Fred stayed.

I am objecting to the notion of an "upward trajectory." I see no reason to think this. I think moving "sideways" or a slight decline was probably the most likely option, even if that starts a high starting point.

I think the best case would have been more-or-less more of the same (e.g., top-third in the Big 12 most seasons, plays strong in Kansas City, wins some big games but also loses some perplexing ones along the way, not very good on the road comparatively, and tends to lose in the first weekend or in the Sweet Sixteen).

Upward trajectory from that would imply Big 12 titles, erasing the WTF losses from our schedule, and making deep runs in March. Looking at what our teams in that era were achieving, they never had the statistical profile (especially on defense and rebounding metrics) of what the kind of programs that do that really look like.

 

[NoCreativity]

You cant be serious, that team was a 3 seed, which when all is said and done is usually what represents what kind of year you had. They were 12-6 in the Big 12, won 25 games overall, including the Big 12 tournament. How much better did you expect them to be?

You are comparing that to a 9-9 team that was a 6 seed and that had lost 6 out of 8 games towards the end of the season.

 

[Halincandenza]

That sounds like a team that was cresting -- not just about to hit its real stride.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda on the Niang injury. You are what your record says you are.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda won the Big 12 regular season that year (or at least tied it) but Hoiberg refused to call a timeout when Baylor went on a three-point barrage in Hilton and we literally fumbled away a game in Manhattan against an inferior Kansas State team we should have slaughtered. Going 2-2 when you controlled your own fate to win the Big 12 if you went 4-0 does not argue for a program that was locked-in and disciplined every night.

The team that offseason was losing Bryce Dejean-Jones (obviously a headache but an NBA level SG of a talent), Hogue, and (and we didn't know it yet) most of the next year for Naz Mitrou-Long. We were bringing in nobody who deserved to play at that level except for Deonte Burton. That's a net downgrade in talent, and Hoiberg had nothing coming in on the recruiting pipeline except a legacy (Nick Weiler-Babb, who turned out to be a good player).

You were right the team was humming, but only with limits, and it was not "on an upwards trajectory."

It was about to crash.

Yeah, it is so easy to with the regular season conference championship. I mean everyone in the league is doing it...

Actually, he had a couple guys that he might have gotten if he came back. One being Cheick Diallo but if not him, he would have had gotten Max Biefeldt as a grad transfer which would have been a great addition to that team.
In addition, ISU was in good position with a lot of HS recruits for the coming years and would have kept getting good transfers.

 

[Halincandenza]

I have never thought the program was about to crash or something had Fred stayed.

I am objecting to the notion of an "upward trajectory." I see no reason to think this. I think moving "sideways" or a slight decline was probably the most likely option, even if that starts a high starting point.

I think the best case would have been more-or-less more of the same (e.g., top-third in the Big 12 most seasons, plays strong in Kansas City, wins some big games but also loses some perplexing ones along the way, not very good on the road comparatively, and tends to lose in the first weekend or in the Sweet Sixteen).

Upward trajectory from that would imply Big 12 titles, erasing the WTF losses from our schedule, and making deep runs in March. Looking at what our teams in that era were achieving, they never had the statistical profile (especially on defense and rebounding metrics) of what the kind of programs that do that really look like.

Most programs even good ones aren't a linear path. I mean no consistently good team would be considered on an upward trajectory under what your argument appears to be.

 

[ISUChippewa]

I dont know how to make it blatantly more clear to you. Nobody was happy after the UAB loss, I was as pissed as Ive been since the Michigan State game in 2000. But years later when you take everything in context of what happened that entire year and the 3 years before that, its a little more forgiving, has nothing to do with the coach.

Jers,

I have never claimed that you, nor anyone else for that matter, was "happy" after the UAB loss. It's a ridiculous idea in the first place; who the h*ll could be happy after a loss like that?

But, you are also on record as admitting that you disliked Prohm from the very start. And guess what? You win. You've been validated. He will most likely be let go at the end of the season, or have his buy out negotiated, etc. And he should be let go, forced to resign, what have you. This program is a steaming pile of dog turds right now, Covid or not. But you cannot tell me with a straight face that you've ever been able to be objective towards the tenure of CSP. You've essentially admitted (and again, it was late, but I actually appreciate your honesty) that you've had bones to pick with him from Day One. I really don't understand why you are trying to pretend towards any sort of objectivity here. I'm not buying it.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Yeah, it is so easy to with the regular season conference championship. I mean everyone in the league is doing it...

Actually, he had a couple guys that he might have gotten if he came back. One being Cheick Diallo but if not him, he would have had gotten Max Biefeldt as a grad transfer which would have been a great addition to that team.
In addition, ISU was in good position with a lot of HS recruits for the coming years and would have kept getting good transfers.

These points are hit-or-miss.

-- CW said Bielfeldt wanted to commit, and he would have been nice depth, but only for one year
-- CW said we were never getting Diallo
-- even if we miss on Diallo, though, I agree with you that Fred probably could have brought in some 4* kinds of guys (e.g., Niang, Morris, and Thomas) that were good enough to build a winning program around
-- I kind of disagree with you on the transfer market... it was about to get a lot tougher, and Fred's tenure in Lincoln is showing that, now that the blue-bloods are wise to it... Malik Newman was exactly the kind of guy that would have ended up in Ames early in Fred's tenure, but notice he ended up in Lawrence late in it

So, maybe. It just don't think it was guaranteed. Fred had a storm to weather if he chose to come back.

I don't think he would have sucked. But I thought we'd seen his ceiling, too.

 

[Statefan10]

Yeah, it is so easy to with the regular season conference championship. I mean everyone in the league is doing it...

Actually, he had a couple guys that he might have gotten if he came back. One being Cheick Diallo but if not him, he would have had gotten Max Biefeldt as a grad transfer which would have been a great addition to that team.
In addition, ISU was in good position with a lot of HS recruits for the coming years and would have kept getting good transfers.

There was a really good chance that we would've landed both Miles Bridges and Cassius Winston. Both had really good visits.

 

[Halincandenza]

There was a really good chance that we would've landed both Miles Bridges and Cassius Winston. Both had really good visits.

I also remember Amir Coffey being ISU's to lose if Fred stayed.

 

[NoCreativity]

Jers,

I have never claimed that you, nor anyone else for that matter, was "happy" after the UAB loss. It's a ridiculous idea in the first place; who the h*ll could be happy after a loss like that?

But, you are also on record as admitting that you disliked Prohm from the very start. And guess what? You win. You've been validated. He will most likely be let go at the end of the season, or have his buy out negotiated, etc. And he should be let go, forced to resign, what have you. This program is a steaming pile of dog turds right now, Covid or not. But you cannot tell me with a straight face that you've ever been able to be objective towards the tenure of CSP. You've essentially admitted (and again, it was late, but I actually appreciate your honesty) that you've had bones to pick with him from Day One. I really don't understand why you are trying to pretend towards any sort of objectivity here. I'm not buying it.

Yeah, Ive made that blatantly clear many times going back 3 or 4 years. I think its best we just move on now, I dont see what the use of rehashing old seasons is in a Darian Devries thread. Im trying to be positive about looking to the future.

 

[Nococy]

All this comparison between Hoiberg and Prohm losing key games is useless. The key factor is today and unfortunately Prohm isn’t getting the job done.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Yeah, Ive made that blatantly clear many times going back 3 or 4 years. I think its best we just move on now, I dont see what the use of rehashing old seasons is in a Darian Devries thread. Im trying to be positive about looking to the future.

Well, I'm glad that we can agree on something at least

In all honesty though, I know we get pretty heated up towards each other on these forums, but I truly think that if we were ever to meet in person at a CycloneFanatic event that we would actually get along pretty well. Clearly we're both pretty passionate about our Cyclones.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter and I'm ready to drop it.

 

[NoCreativity]

Well, I'm glad that we can agree on something at least

In all honesty though, I know we get pretty heated up towards each other on these forums, but I truly think that if we were ever to meet in person at a CycloneFanatic event that we would actually get along pretty well. Clearly we're both pretty passionate about our Cyclones.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter and I'm ready to drop it.

Sounds good man, Ill drop all the Prohm stuff. Quite frankly Im burnt out on talking about him. I apologize if Ive got under your skin the last few years, I probably take this stuff a little too seriously than I should sometimes.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Sounds good man, Ill drop all the Prohm stuff. Quite frankly Im burnt out on talking about him. I apologize if Ive got under your skin the last few years, I probably take this stuff a little too seriously than I should sometimes.

No worries buddy. Being passionate usually doesn't equate to being calm and rational, particularly when it comes to our beloved sports teams

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

Additionally, despite the bad UAB loss the overall arc of Hoiberg's tenure felt like it was on an upward trajectory.

Upward trajectory my ass.. The longer Hoiberg was here the less defense we played. His last season had many games where we got down by a ton and then maybe work our way back and win at the end or fall short. I frustrated as heck with Prohm as well, but Hoiberg's head was out of Ames at least his last season.

Upward trajectory.. L O L

 

[Iastfan112]

Upward trajectory my ass.. The longer Hoiberg was here the less defense we played. His last season had many games where we got down by a ton and then maybe work our way back and win at the end or fall short. I frustrated as heck with Prohm as well, but Hoiberg's head was out of Ames at least his last season.

Upward trajectory.. L O L

Iowa State's defense trended better during his tenure. In the 4 NCAA year the opponent offensive rating ranked: 159th, 173rd, 118th, 110th. Now none of those ranking are great but it is improvement.

 

[cincinnaticyclone]

Drake enters the Top 25 today at #25. They play tonight against Illinois State at 6 on ESPN3

 

[Statefan10]

Upward trajectory my ass.. The longer Hoiberg was here the less defense we played. His last season had many games where we got down by a ton and then maybe work our way back and win at the end or fall short. I frustrated as heck with Prohm as well, but Hoiberg's head was out of Ames at least his last season.

Upward trajectory.. L O L

There are a plethora of coaches both at the college level and professional level who have the same mentality of just scoring more. Fred having that mentality doesn't mean he was destined for failure.

We were 100% headed in the right direction. As a whole, every team Fred coached did better than the previous year. If Fred would've stayed, you can't possibly have thought "well we're heading in the wrong direction" after going 25-9, getting 2nd in the Big 12 and winning the Big 12 Tournament.