Only seats 7500. The Ferrell Center used to seat around 10,500 so not sure why they reduced capacity when they built new.
Baylor has revamped Foster Pavilion's camera angle!
- Thread starter loyalsons4evertrue
- Start date
KidSilverhair
Well-Known Member
I maybe get it for a smaller school but for a school that is in a power conference and has won a national title not long ago it's a bit odd to downsize capacity which also limits what kind of other events you could host at that venue as well such as concerts. I guess they kind of are in the boonies behind over 90 minutes away from Dallas. Their FB stadium also is near the bottom of the Big in capacity.
I guess we should feel pretty fortunate that we have the 2nd largest Big 12 FB stadium behind BYU and the 6th largest basketball arena behind BYU KU TT Utah and AZ and we fill both up pretty well even during some down seasons. I guess I look at Creighton and how with their small enrollment they average over 17,000 in attendance although they kind of have a unique following too.
Villanova plays most of their big games at the Wells Fargo Center which is 21,000. Houston has slowly reduced their capacity from 10k down to current because they could never sell it out and they converted to more premium/club seating and suites to maximize revenue. Duke of course is a unique deal, they'd pack a much larger arena but why would they? Cameron indoor is iconic, massive home court advantage, "Krzyzewskiville", etc.
Short version however is that we are lucky to have such an awesome fan base that will pack 14k+ for our men's team and 10k+ for the women.
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They weren't selling it out. Attendance across college sports have been falling in both football and basketball. Even Kansas State reduced seating in their basketball arena in 2022. Schools want to focus on premium seatings and more expensive food/beer.
Premium seating, hot chicken, deafening volumes: How men's college hoops is keeping fans engaged
Men's college basketball has a serious attendance problem, and athletic departments around the country are trying to solve it. Among the solutions: smaller arenas with better amenities.
They built it right. Last year that place was full and it was loud against us. Looked and sounded better than their old one. Bet Oklahoma State wishes GIA was that size still.
Also older venues too, Houston opened in 1969 Duke 1940 and Villanova 1986. Guessing the later 2 given their popularity and basketball status probably would expand capacity if they were to ever replace those facilities. Maybe Houston too given their enrollment over 37,000 and in a large metro area although they already have an NBA team in town so they probably wouldn't go nuts on how much bigger they would build.
I guess I see both sides of the argument, smaller arenas make for a louder environment and more demand for a popular game, but a larger arena also increases revenue potential not only for your own games but the types of events you can host in the offseason.
Jayskers.
Iowa State is a complete and total outlier in increasing/maintaining attendance.
We’re seeing a shift in attendance across virtually all sports. If you build in (tight to sidelines) and up, smaller sized crowds can still look and sound intimidating creating a great environment- especially for indoor sports.
Fully agree with what others have said as well, build to what your fanbase demands. Empty seats are not worth it just to say your arena holds over __k. It just detracts from the environment.
Fully agree with what others have said as well, build to what your fanbase demands. Empty seats are not worth it just to say your arena holds over __k. It just detracts from the environment.
And I know why, but we are right at the point of breaking in terms of removing the best elements that have drawn people in and kept us where we are over the past decade +:
- Affordable ticket prices
- Easy parking
- Relatively affordable concessions
- "Family atmosphere" - hillsides, JCC, mostly PG crowds except for critical games
- Prominent placement of student section to lead the crowd (still have this in basketball)
- Lights on in Hilton so you can see the crowd and energy on TV (yep, I'm bringing this up again - it's so bad - schools that don't fill their arena need to hide empty seats, we don't)
Given the struggles to sell out football games this year even as the team is experiencing what could be the best season in program history, it really seems like we've hit our peak. If MBB hits a lull in success in the future, I'll be really curious to see what happens to crowd size. Additionally, if we'd had this year's schedule in FB but were only looking at a 6-6/7-5 type of team, I think we could have seen crowds return to where they were when I was growing up - struggling to draw more than 40-45k except for Iowa/Nebraska types of games, where the road team brought a big chunk of fans along. We have been really lucky through the B12 change this year that all of our premier programs are at their all-time peaks. While I hope that doesn't change and that we dominate this new version of the league, the parity means we're going to have down years and our opponents are just not as elite, or regional, as they once were.
I understand each university doing what they need to do in regards to their demand, but it's also not a big stretch to say Baylor aimed a little low with their overall capacity. According to this 247 article from November in 2023, they were averaging roughly 1200 more fans than the new arena holds. Why not aim for a capacity higher than the average attendance to prevent lost revenue? You could still add the premium seating and increased amenities.
I know cost analyses were done, but I'd struggle knowing that I may be leaving an average of 1200+ fans and their money on the table.
247sports.com
AVERAGE
10,614 - SEC
9,432 - ACC
9,369 - Big 12
9,197 - Big East
5,909 - Pac 12
BIG 12
8. Kansas (2) - 16,300
14. BYU (2) - 14,410
20. Iowa State (3) - 13,405
25. Texas Tech (2) - 11,687
33. Texas (2) - 10,632
35. West Virginia (2) - 10,082
38. Kansas State (1) - 9,947
44. Baylor (2) - 8,726
59. Houston (2) - 6,989
71. UCF (1) - 6,225
78. TCU (2) - 5,807
79. Cincinnati (3) - 5,755
81. Oklahoma (2) - 5,736
83. Oklahoma State (2) - 5,464
ACC
2. Syracuse (2) - 19,105
4. North Carolina (2) - 17,970
15. Virginia (1) - 14,080
22. NC State (2) - 12,521
32. Louisville (2) - 10,822
39. Duke (2) - 9,314
41. Virginia Tech (1) - 8,925
51. Miami (2) - 7,417
53. Pittsburgh (2) - 7,272
63. Wake Forest (1) - 6,641
64. Notre Dame (2) - 6,540
68. Clemson (1) - 6,361
73. Florida State (1) - 6,165
93. Boston College (1) - 4,736
121. Georgia Tech (2) - 3,608
BIG EAST
7. Creighton (2) - 16,514
11. Marquette (2) - 15,277
23. Connecticut (2) - 12,453
26. Providence (2) - 11,580
34. Xavier (2) - 10,325
45. Georgetown (2) - 8,478
61. Butler (2) - 6,932
66. Villanova (2) - 6,501
82. St. John's (1) - 5,602
94. Seton Hall (2) - 4,707
142. DePaul (2) - 2,796
BIG TEN
5. Indiana (2) - 17,222
9. Wisconsin (2) - 15,660
10. Illinois (2) - 15,279
12. Purdue (2) - 14,876
13. Michigan State (2) - 14,797
16. Maryland (1) - 14,044
17. Nebraska (2) - 13,622
29. Ohio State (2) - 10,974
31. Michigan (2) - 10,830
42. Penn State (2) - 8,809
46. Iowa (2) - 8,234
47. Rutgers (2) - 8,000
57. Minnesota (2) - 7,053
88. Northwestern (2) - 4,970
PAC 12
18. Arizona (1) - 13,455
48. Utah (2) - 7,599
54. Arizona State (1) - 7,263
56. Oregon (1) - 7,141
65. UCLA (2) - 6,521
70. Colorado (2) - 6,310
72. USC (1) - 6,211
76. Washington (3) 5,916
133. California (2) - 3,131
147. Oregon State (2) - 2,709
162. Stanford (2) - 2,346
165. Washington State (2) - 2,303
SEC
1. Arkansas (2) - 19,200
3. Kentucky (2) - 19,042
6. Tennessee (1) - 17,047
21. Missouri (2) - 13,274
27. South Carolina (1) - 11,216
37. Alabama (2) - 9,989
40. Auburn (1) - 9,121
43. Texas A&M (1) - 8,802
49. LSU (2) - 7,594
50. Mississippi State (1) - 7,525
58. Florida (1) - 7,023
60. Georgia (2) - 6,938
67. Mississippi (2) - 6,403
84. Vanderbilt (2) - 5,426
TOP 10 OTHERS
19. Dayton (1) - 13,407
24. San Diego State (1) - 12,414
28. New Mexico (1) - 11,106
30. Memphis (1) - 10,912
36. Boise State (2) - 10,011
52. VCU (2) - 7,376
55. Grand Canyon (2) - 7,152
62. Nevada (1) - 6,875
69. Wichita State (3) - 6,313
74. Oral Roberts (1) - 6,002
I know cost analyses were done, but I'd struggle knowing that I may be leaving an average of 1200+ fans and their money on the table.
College Basketball Attendance Report (2023-24)
College Basketball Attendance Report (2023-24)
247sports.com
AVERAGE
10,614 - SEC
9,432 - ACC
9,369 - Big 12
9,197 - Big East
5,909 - Pac 12
BIG 12
8. Kansas (2) - 16,300
14. BYU (2) - 14,410
20. Iowa State (3) - 13,405
25. Texas Tech (2) - 11,687
33. Texas (2) - 10,632
35. West Virginia (2) - 10,082
38. Kansas State (1) - 9,947
44. Baylor (2) - 8,726
59. Houston (2) - 6,989
71. UCF (1) - 6,225
78. TCU (2) - 5,807
79. Cincinnati (3) - 5,755
81. Oklahoma (2) - 5,736
83. Oklahoma State (2) - 5,464
ACC
2. Syracuse (2) - 19,105
4. North Carolina (2) - 17,970
15. Virginia (1) - 14,080
22. NC State (2) - 12,521
32. Louisville (2) - 10,822
39. Duke (2) - 9,314
41. Virginia Tech (1) - 8,925
51. Miami (2) - 7,417
53. Pittsburgh (2) - 7,272
63. Wake Forest (1) - 6,641
64. Notre Dame (2) - 6,540
68. Clemson (1) - 6,361
73. Florida State (1) - 6,165
93. Boston College (1) - 4,736
121. Georgia Tech (2) - 3,608
BIG EAST
7. Creighton (2) - 16,514
11. Marquette (2) - 15,277
23. Connecticut (2) - 12,453
26. Providence (2) - 11,580
34. Xavier (2) - 10,325
45. Georgetown (2) - 8,478
61. Butler (2) - 6,932
66. Villanova (2) - 6,501
82. St. John's (1) - 5,602
94. Seton Hall (2) - 4,707
142. DePaul (2) - 2,796
BIG TEN
5. Indiana (2) - 17,222
9. Wisconsin (2) - 15,660
10. Illinois (2) - 15,279
12. Purdue (2) - 14,876
13. Michigan State (2) - 14,797
16. Maryland (1) - 14,044
17. Nebraska (2) - 13,622
29. Ohio State (2) - 10,974
31. Michigan (2) - 10,830
42. Penn State (2) - 8,809
46. Iowa (2) - 8,234
47. Rutgers (2) - 8,000
57. Minnesota (2) - 7,053
88. Northwestern (2) - 4,970
PAC 12
18. Arizona (1) - 13,455
48. Utah (2) - 7,599
54. Arizona State (1) - 7,263
56. Oregon (1) - 7,141
65. UCLA (2) - 6,521
70. Colorado (2) - 6,310
72. USC (1) - 6,211
76. Washington (3) 5,916
133. California (2) - 3,131
147. Oregon State (2) - 2,709
162. Stanford (2) - 2,346
165. Washington State (2) - 2,303
SEC
1. Arkansas (2) - 19,200
3. Kentucky (2) - 19,042
6. Tennessee (1) - 17,047
21. Missouri (2) - 13,274
27. South Carolina (1) - 11,216
37. Alabama (2) - 9,989
40. Auburn (1) - 9,121
43. Texas A&M (1) - 8,802
49. LSU (2) - 7,594
50. Mississippi State (1) - 7,525
58. Florida (1) - 7,023
60. Georgia (2) - 6,938
67. Mississippi (2) - 6,403
84. Vanderbilt (2) - 5,426
TOP 10 OTHERS
19. Dayton (1) - 13,407
24. San Diego State (1) - 12,414
28. New Mexico (1) - 11,106
30. Memphis (1) - 10,912
36. Boise State (2) - 10,011
52. VCU (2) - 7,376
55. Grand Canyon (2) - 7,152
62. Nevada (1) - 6,875
69. Wichita State (3) - 6,313
74. Oral Roberts (1) - 6,002
Two things:I understand each university doing what they need to do in regards to their demand, but it's also not a big stretch to say Baylor aimed a little low with their overall capacity. According to this 247 article from November in 2023, they were averaging roughly 1200 more fans than the new arena holds. Why not aim for a capacity higher than the average attendance to prevent lost revenue? You could still add the premium seating and increased amenities.
I know cost analyses were done, but I'd struggle knowing that I may be leaving an average of 1200+ fans and their money on the table.
College Basketball Attendance Report (2023-24)
College Basketball Attendance Report (2023-24)
AVERAGE
10,614 - SEC
9,432 - ACC
9,369 - Big 12
9,197 - Big East
5,909 - Pac 12
BIG 12
8. Kansas (2) - 16,300
14. BYU (2) - 14,410
20. Iowa State (3) - 13,405
25. Texas Tech (2) - 11,687
33. Texas (2) - 10,632
35. West Virginia (2) - 10,082
38. Kansas State (1) - 9,947
44. Baylor (2) - 8,726
59. Houston (2) - 6,989
71. UCF (1) - 6,225
78. TCU (2) - 5,807
79. Cincinnati (3) - 5,755
81. Oklahoma (2) - 5,736
83. Oklahoma State (2) - 5,464
ACC
2. Syracuse (2) - 19,105
4. North Carolina (2) - 17,970
15. Virginia (1) - 14,080
22. NC State (2) - 12,521
32. Louisville (2) - 10,822
39. Duke (2) - 9,314
41. Virginia Tech (1) - 8,925
51. Miami (2) - 7,417
53. Pittsburgh (2) - 7,272
63. Wake Forest (1) - 6,641
64. Notre Dame (2) - 6,540
68. Clemson (1) - 6,361
73. Florida State (1) - 6,165
93. Boston College (1) - 4,736
121. Georgia Tech (2) - 3,608
BIG EAST
7. Creighton (2) - 16,514
11. Marquette (2) - 15,277
23. Connecticut (2) - 12,453
26. Providence (2) - 11,580
34. Xavier (2) - 10,325
45. Georgetown (2) - 8,478
61. Butler (2) - 6,932
66. Villanova (2) - 6,501
82. St. John's (1) - 5,602
94. Seton Hall (2) - 4,707
142. DePaul (2) - 2,796
BIG TEN
5. Indiana (2) - 17,222
9. Wisconsin (2) - 15,660
10. Illinois (2) - 15,279
12. Purdue (2) - 14,876
13. Michigan State (2) - 14,797
16. Maryland (1) - 14,044
17. Nebraska (2) - 13,622
29. Ohio State (2) - 10,974
31. Michigan (2) - 10,830
42. Penn State (2) - 8,809
46. Iowa (2) - 8,234
47. Rutgers (2) - 8,000
57. Minnesota (2) - 7,053
88. Northwestern (2) - 4,970
PAC 12
18. Arizona (1) - 13,455
48. Utah (2) - 7,599
54. Arizona State (1) - 7,263
56. Oregon (1) - 7,141
65. UCLA (2) - 6,521
70. Colorado (2) - 6,310
72. USC (1) - 6,211
76. Washington (3) 5,916
133. California (2) - 3,131
147. Oregon State (2) - 2,709
162. Stanford (2) - 2,346
165. Washington State (2) - 2,303
SEC
1. Arkansas (2) - 19,200
3. Kentucky (2) - 19,042
6. Tennessee (1) - 17,047
21. Missouri (2) - 13,274
27. South Carolina (1) - 11,216
37. Alabama (2) - 9,989
40. Auburn (1) - 9,121
43. Texas A&M (1) - 8,802
49. LSU (2) - 7,594
50. Mississippi State (1) - 7,525
58. Florida (1) - 7,023
60. Georgia (2) - 6,938
67. Mississippi (2) - 6,403
84. Vanderbilt (2) - 5,426
TOP 10 OTHERS
19. Dayton (1) - 13,407
24. San Diego State (1) - 12,414
28. New Mexico (1) - 11,106
30. Memphis (1) - 10,912
36. Boise State (2) - 10,011
52. VCU (2) - 7,376
55. Grand Canyon (2) - 7,152
62. Nevada (1) - 6,875
69. Wichita State (3) - 6,313
74. Oral Roberts (1) - 6,002
1) Aiming low is not a bad way to future proof a new basketball arena given clear nationwide trends.
2) Limiting seats helps to create scarcity and to provide better amenities (and amenity/fan ratio) generating more money per seat. So even though fewer fans are coming through the door, I bet the AD is making the same, if not more money.
I understand each university doing what they need to do in regards to their demand, but it's also not a big stretch to say Baylor aimed a little low with their overall capacity. According to this 247 article from November in 2023, they were averaging roughly 1200 more fans than the new arena holds. Why not aim for a capacity higher than the average attendance to prevent lost revenue? You could still add the premium seating and increased amenities.
I know cost analyses were done, but I'd struggle knowing that I may be leaving an average of 1200+ fans and their money on the table.
College Basketball Attendance Report (2023-24)
College Basketball Attendance Report (2023-24)
AVERAGE
10,614 - SEC
9,432 - ACC
9,369 - Big 12
9,197 - Big East
5,909 - Pac 12
BIG 12
8. Kansas (2) - 16,300
14. BYU (2) - 14,410
20. Iowa State (3) - 13,405
25. Texas Tech (2) - 11,687
33. Texas (2) - 10,632
35. West Virginia (2) - 10,082
38. Kansas State (1) - 9,947
44. Baylor (2) - 8,726
59. Houston (2) - 6,989
71. UCF (1) - 6,225
78. TCU (2) - 5,807
79. Cincinnati (3) - 5,755
81. Oklahoma (2) - 5,736
83. Oklahoma State (2) - 5,464
ACC
2. Syracuse (2) - 19,105
4. North Carolina (2) - 17,970
15. Virginia (1) - 14,080
22. NC State (2) - 12,521
32. Louisville (2) - 10,822
39. Duke (2) - 9,314
41. Virginia Tech (1) - 8,925
51. Miami (2) - 7,417
53. Pittsburgh (2) - 7,272
63. Wake Forest (1) - 6,641
64. Notre Dame (2) - 6,540
68. Clemson (1) - 6,361
73. Florida State (1) - 6,165
93. Boston College (1) - 4,736
121. Georgia Tech (2) - 3,608
BIG EAST
7. Creighton (2) - 16,514
11. Marquette (2) - 15,277
23. Connecticut (2) - 12,453
26. Providence (2) - 11,580
34. Xavier (2) - 10,325
45. Georgetown (2) - 8,478
61. Butler (2) - 6,932
66. Villanova (2) - 6,501
82. St. John's (1) - 5,602
94. Seton Hall (2) - 4,707
142. DePaul (2) - 2,796
BIG TEN
5. Indiana (2) - 17,222
9. Wisconsin (2) - 15,660
10. Illinois (2) - 15,279
12. Purdue (2) - 14,876
13. Michigan State (2) - 14,797
16. Maryland (1) - 14,044
17. Nebraska (2) - 13,622
29. Ohio State (2) - 10,974
31. Michigan (2) - 10,830
42. Penn State (2) - 8,809
46. Iowa (2) - 8,234
47. Rutgers (2) - 8,000
57. Minnesota (2) - 7,053
88. Northwestern (2) - 4,970
PAC 12
18. Arizona (1) - 13,455
48. Utah (2) - 7,599
54. Arizona State (1) - 7,263
56. Oregon (1) - 7,141
65. UCLA (2) - 6,521
70. Colorado (2) - 6,310
72. USC (1) - 6,211
76. Washington (3) 5,916
133. California (2) - 3,131
147. Oregon State (2) - 2,709
162. Stanford (2) - 2,346
165. Washington State (2) - 2,303
SEC
1. Arkansas (2) - 19,200
3. Kentucky (2) - 19,042
6. Tennessee (1) - 17,047
21. Missouri (2) - 13,274
27. South Carolina (1) - 11,216
37. Alabama (2) - 9,989
40. Auburn (1) - 9,121
43. Texas A&M (1) - 8,802
49. LSU (2) - 7,594
50. Mississippi State (1) - 7,525
58. Florida (1) - 7,023
60. Georgia (2) - 6,938
67. Mississippi (2) - 6,403
84. Vanderbilt (2) - 5,426
TOP 10 OTHERS
19. Dayton (1) - 13,407
24. San Diego State (1) - 12,414
28. New Mexico (1) - 11,106
30. Memphis (1) - 10,912
36. Boise State (2) - 10,011
52. VCU (2) - 7,376
55. Grand Canyon (2) - 7,152
62. Nevada (1) - 6,875
69. Wichita State (3) - 6,313
LOL @ Iowa and their 8234 average in an arena that holds nearly 15k. If it wasn't for their women selling out games lately they would be a prime case to reduce their seating capacity. Even the ISU women on a down year usually average more than that
Or have a lower bowl for 6,000 or so. Hilton really is a pretty good design with the 6000/8000 spilt between the lower and 2nd level. A crowd of 6,000 - 7,000 (talking actual people not tickets) at a WBB game seems like way more people. It's also a good "view" for TV. So good design. At 50% capacity it doesn't seem only "half" full at all but you have room for 14,000 for MBB and special games and special seasons.
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The old platform was in the very top row. Now it looks like it's at the mezzanine/concourse level.
My main argument is that adding another 1000 seats wouldn't change much in those regards. There's a potential 10-14% revenue loss per game that is being willingly given up. If their ticket sales were trending that badly, then I understand. However, I'd worry about creating a longer-term problem by telling 10-14% of my fan base that they can't get in.
I realize, it's apples to oranges , but if we renovated Hilton and reduced the number of seats 10% below the average attendance, there will be some pissed off fans.
