It’s my fault. I wasn’t there to yell at him to get back off the line. I think he could have heard me up in Section K, row 19.
Ineligible Man Downfield
- Thread starter Urbandale2013
- Start date
Why don't you go ask Scates what he was doing? He pointed backwards at the last minute and didn't adjust. He seemed to realize too late that he lined up wrong. As soon as our group noticed there was a flag, I said he lined up on the LOS and covered the TE.
I knew what it was too. I don’t get why you have to be so insufferable about a potential improvement of the rules. If you don’t think anything needs to change fine we can respectfully disagree. I just don’t like the idea that someone can try and clarify with an official with what they are doing and the official shouldn’t be expected to answer an interpretation/enforcement. It’s like in golf when they call a rules official.
I think the occasional "illegal formation" type penalty is a by product of all the pre-snap shifting we do. It confuses the defense, and gets them to show their hand, but it also increases the risk of an offensive players not lining up correctly. It comes with the territory. It's like a team that uses a lot of hard counts to draw the defense off-sides. It will occasionally backfire with a false start.
Scates walked right up to the line, looked at the official, and pointed at the official. That's an indication that he's checking to make sure he is on the LOS.
Then he turned away and gave some sort of half-wave of his arm (while NOT looking at the official). He couldn't have seen any sort of second confirmation signal from the official, because he never looked.
Then he turned away and gave some sort of half-wave of his arm (while NOT looking at the official). He couldn't have seen any sort of second confirmation signal from the official, because he never looked.
Yeah, all that shifting has a benefit, but the drawback is more illegal formation and false start penalties. We have to lead the nation in offensive penalties. It's pretty ridiculous, really. And Scates is not helping his cause for more playing time.
@Urbandale2013 you can disagree with my prior post all you want but it's true. A partner at the CPA firm I used to work at was a long time Big 12 official and we had numerous discussions about stuff like this. Not to mention I've heard coaches when I was playing and now when I watch some practices harping on players to know where they need to line up and not rely on the officials.
I don't think we've been that bad. 5 yard penalties aren't killers. It's the 10 yard holding calls that end drives and I don't think we've had too many of those. You are right about Scates. That's probably the biggest reason he isn't playing more.
I don’t disagree with you though. I never said I disagreed with the call. He did line up wrong. I don’t think there is currently an expectation for an official to respond.
I would like to see an improvement to the rules that requires them to respond though. As I told the other person people can disagree with that all they want. That doesn’t make me an idiot or dumb it just means I have a different opinion on how to improve the rules.
CycloneErik
Well-Known Member
What others are saying, what Scates actually did (up until right before the ball was snapped) is what a WR does to check if he is not lined up offsides and is ON the LOS. So the ref very well may have responded to confirm that those things were correct. He can't at the last second point backwards as if to say, "by the way I'm off the LOS."
What he did was come out and give the standard check to say "am I lined up legally on the LOS," which the ref appeared to confirm. While Scates lined up wrong, leading to a penalty once Allen went downfield, he was not actually lined up illegally.
I think codifying it would be good - you can confirm if you are on the LOS/not offsides. No need to really confirm that you are off the LOS, as you have tons of room to play with that, and it just adds confusion to that confirmation. Either eliminate the confirmation or make it ON LOS only (which is what is normally used in practice).
I'd be interested in hearing something "official" on this. I feel like I see wide outs checks with the officials a lot in the NFL (Lazard seems to check every time he's out wide) and college. It also looks to me like they often don't even look at the official -- thus seemingly expecting an audible correction if they are not lined up the way they are indicating to the official that they intend to be lined up. I've seen receivers adjust after checking, so it seems like they at least sometimes get a response that allows them to correct themselves. Some of the posts in this thread make it seem like nobody should ever bother to check with the officials because it's not their job, they don't respond consistently, and "the officials response is informal meaning it doesn't mean crap".
I continue to be amazed how often college teams go with 8 on the line. In the OU game it was clearly by design when they called the penalty on Kolar (88) by mistake. Soehner (89) clearly was covered up, knew he was covered up, and the play was for him to stay at the LOS and block, which he did. But the refs confused 88 and 89.
Is there a reason we do this?
FYI we are #26 in fewest penalties per game at 5.25, and #24 in fewest penalty yards per game at 44.75. So overall we're not bad. I think we've been trending down since week 1 but haven't looked up the data to confirm.
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I'm convinced they point at the official because it looks cool.
I am a wing official in high school, & my crew will always confirm whether the widest receiver is on or off the line. If off at the snap, we will hold our arm out (towards backfield) indicating as much (pretty sure this is the official mechanic, at least in high school). So for IA high school kids at least, it's very easy to tell if you're off - can't recall if college officials punch the widest receiver back. My crew also puts an arm straight out (in front) or a thumbs up to indicate a receiver is on the line - don't have too, but I'd much rather do that than throw 5 yard procedure flags all night.
I agree this one was on Scates. And while officials don't have to confirm anything, I'd be willing to bet the majority of LOS wing officials in NCAA do let receivers know one way or the other.
I agree this one was on Scates. And while officials don't have to confirm anything, I'd be willing to bet the majority of LOS wing officials in NCAA do let receivers know one way or the other.
An official I used to work with would say the same thing. "Kids see the pros do this, so they wave their hand at the official, but they have no idea what it means." I'm convinced at least 25% of high school kids playing wide out who do it don't really know what the rules are related to off/on.
No idea what that weird "lift arm up but don't actually move" is that Scates did after confirming w. the official. He didn't even look at the official while doing it. Was he maybe signaling Purdy that he had 1-on-1 coverage?
According to the 2018 College Commissioners Association Football Officiating Manual, indication of the receivers status as on or off the LOS is optional. It says a ref crew may do so to help communicate with the other officials who is responsible for whom. So whether they "should" or not, the line judges are not obligated to tell the end man on the line of scrimmage if they are on the line or not.
You can Google and download the manual, but I can't copy a link for some reason.
You can Google and download the manual, but I can't copy a link for some reason.
