This is why Prohm must go........

[ISUChippewa]

Good god - it was a nice win, but it was a regular season game - later as a favorite we lost one a million times more important - to Ohio State - and looked bad doing it.
So what good was that win over TTech?
Please.

Thanks for being Exhibit A in the exact kind of bullsh!t I'm writing about.

You honestly have to ask what was good about handing the national runner-up their only home loss of the whole season? JFC, turn in your f*cking fan card right now. After the sheer idiocy of your question you should never be allowed to post here ever again.

 

[rochclone]

I am firmly convinced that after reading some of the more out there, aka "irrational" (as JP alluded to in his podcast after last season) posts on this board the last year and a half that there are at least a few people, some of whom who post here, who would rather disband the basketball program than have anyone besides Fred Hoiberg be the coach.

And that's why I get after jersebib(?) on here; it's one thing to be disappointed after a tough loss at home. And CSP and the team need to be held to account for the sh!tshow last Thursday. But for cryin' out loud, for as good as how that road win at Texas Tech last season turned out to be, and that went down as one of the best road wins by any team in the whole damn country, there will still a few people who were openly upset about how we won that game. I am not kidding or engaging in hyperbole here; there were posters who were disappointed that we didn't win by double digits (won by 4) and that we didn't score 50% of our points on out of bounds plays. It's f*cking ridiculous.

Jers is on record as writing more than once that he thinks the '14-15 season that ended with a huge upset loss to freakin' UAB was a better season that the Sweet Sixteen season that followed that one. How can you rationally engage with people who think like that? You can't.

I do think that although I agree with him on most things that Cat Stevens can get over the top in his criticisms of other posters on here, but he's absolutely right in that for some critics of CSP it's not really about the basketball. It's all about who he replaced.

Most everyone just wants the program to remain a Top 25 program. If you don’t think these same people would have become disgruntled with Fred eventually you are kidding yourself. The next two years are important for Prohm in order to keep the trajectory of the program on the upswing. Recruiting is the lifeblood but you have to retain, continually develop and win in the toughest conference in America. The regression to making the tournament every other year should not be acceptable for where this program was. Two NCAA tournament appearances (this year and next) and he becomes the greatest coach at Iowa State. Missing the next two tournaments and he is likely out of a job or on the hot seat. It’s razor thin but that is the nature of the profession.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

I don't know if this will help you understand what many on here are feeling but, isu mens basketball white tees, isu football blue tees. It makes a diffrence where your program is starting from.

I can't golf to save my life if that matters. I understand what you are saying. Just pointing out the absurd by being absurd only using Iowa as the mark. Nothing more......nothing less. Just Iowa. I have no problem with CMC and couldn't care less if he loses to Iowa the next couple of years so long as the October and November excitement continues. And even then.....he has built up enough currency to have a few off seasons. Only time I have seriously questioned him is why we threw it 62 times against OSU. As for CSP.....as long as these...........

come every so often I could give a rip what happens in December. Oh, it's nice to build up that non-con resume......but I'm not going to come on here and soil my underwear because we stunk it up for a few hours in December. Because like I said about CMC, with me, CSP has built enough currency to have a few off games. Yes, even against Iowa, which coach Prohm and the guys did. That was bad. Now CSP starts pulling a GMAC.....................................?

 

[madguy30]

A season should not be judged by a Thursday/Friday in March. The fact that a season is labeled “lost” or a “success” based upon a single game/weekend is ridiculous when you play 35 games.

Are you going to say that ISU wasn’t a Top 32 squad in 15-16 and 19-20 just because they lost in the First Round? You would be wrong with both teams. Teams prove what they are over a 18 game conference schedule not on a Thursday/Friday in March.

FWIW the first round NCAA game was basically a microcosm of a 9-9 conference slate, they both were strong reflections of the season.

 

[Tornado man]

Thanks for being Exhibit A in the exact kind of bullsh!t I'm writing about.

You honestly have to ask what was good about handing the national runner-up their only home loss of the whole season? JFC, turn in your f*cking fan card right now. After the sheer idiocy of your question you should never be allowed to post here ever again.

That pales to the NCAA tournament, and you know it. Every team, when they start practice, has a goal in mind: March Madness.
The Ohio State loss was much more significant to our program than the TTech win. Yes, the win over Tech helped earn us the 6 seed, and then we did nothing with it, losing immediately to a team that barely made the tournament.
So that win in Lubbock meant nothing. Zip.

 

[FinalFourCy]

FWIW the first round NCAA game was basically a microcosm of a 9-9 conference slate, they both were strong reflections of the season.

Agree.
9-9 with a loss in Rd 1 as a 6 seed isn’t a bad year, but it falls short if filling the role of a peak season. Add in the collapse and losing the locker room, and it’s not going to be enough to keep fans happy if we miss the tournament this year.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

That pales to the NCAA tournament, and you know it. Every team, when they start practice, has a goal in mind: March Madness.
The Ohio State loss was much more significant to our program than the TTech win. Yes, the win over Tech helped earn us the 6 seed, and then we did nothing with it, losing immediately to a team that barely made the tournament.
So that win in Lubbock meant nothing. Zip.

So winning the conference tourney in 14/15 meant nothing? We did NOTHING with that #3 seed. Zip. Or how about that conference championship in 00-01? I know it's been awhile, but that meant nothing? Because we did NOTHING with that #2 seed. Zip.

 

[madguy30]

So winning the conference tourney in 14/15 meant nothing? We did NOTHING with that #3 seed. Zip. Or how about that conference championship in 00-01? I know it's been awhile, but that meant nothing? Because we did NOTHING with that #2 seed. Zip.

Actually repeating but the UAB game was a rinse and repeat of what that team had done at other times that season so kind of like last season in a way.

And the 00/01 season...that team wasn't the same after they got ran out of the place in Austin, and the NCAA tournament was a continuation of the B12 tourney loss to Baylor. I remember seeing that team described as 'playing like they're under water' in that Baylor game and thought that was pretty accurate.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

Actually repeating but the UAB game was a rinse and repeat of what that team had done at other times that season so kind of like last season in a way.

And the 00/01 season...that team wasn't the same after they got ran out of the place in Austin, and the NCAA tournament was a continuation of the B12 tourney loss to Baylor. I remember seeing that team described as 'playing like they're under water' in that Baylor game and thought that was pretty accurate.

Oh I am with you %100 on that. Just once again pointing out the absurd by being absurd. Some people will try and diminish anything good that has/will happened while CSP is coach.

 

[ISUChippewa]

So winning the conference tourney in 14/15 meant nothing? We did NOTHING with that #3 seed. Zip. Or how about that conference championship in 00-01? I know it's been awhile, but that meant nothing? Because we did NOTHING with that #2 seed. Zip.

Well...those losses don't matter at all, since they didn't happen under a coach he hates, so yeah...

 

[madguy30]

Oh I am with you %100 on that. Just once again pointing out the absurd by being absurd. Some people will try and diminish anything good that has/will happened while CSP is coach.

CSP has done great things. Lots, really.

There are trends though that imo make it at least seem worth it to question where the program really is.

In some ways, a game right away may have been good to get a game in, but maybe this long time between games helps get a few things figured out.

 

[Rise of the Clones]

I'm not a Prohm hater, but this program has really taken a drop compared to the Hoiberg era. This team has no direction, players are transferring in and out every year. There is little stability with this program. I'm not on the fire Prohm train yet, but if things don't improve next year I'll be joining.

 

[moores2]

That pales to the NCAA tournament, and you know it. Every team, when they start practice, has a goal in mind: March Madness.
The Ohio State loss was much more significant to our program than the TTech win. Yes, the win over Tech helped earn us the 6 seed, and then we did nothing with it, losing immediately to a team that barely made the tournament.
So that win in Lubbock meant nothing. Zip.

A team that barely made the tournament that just got their best player back from suspension... We beat that Ohio State team easily without Wesson.

 

[NoCreativity]

Thanks for being Exhibit A in the exact kind of bullsh!t I'm writing about.

You honestly have to ask what was good about handing the national runner-up their only home loss of the whole season? JFC, turn in your f*cking fan card right now. After the sheer idiocy of your question you should never be allowed to post here ever again.

I agree with you, those wins are fantastic, but what good does it do when you turn right back around and lose to them in Hilton? All you end up with is a .500 program in the Big 12 which is exactly what we've seen the last 5 years.

I mean, I was excited when they ran K-State out of the gym in Manhattan, but then I remembered they lost to them early in the season because nobody could make a simple free throw.

Didn't Mcdermott win once in Manhattan when they were ranked 4th or something? While thats certainly one of the better wins in college basketball that year it doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme of that season when the program is a complete dumpster fire.

 

[NoCreativity]

A team that barely made the tournament that just got their best player back from suspension... We beat that Ohio State team easily without Wesson.

He played 32 games and 17 Big Ten games for them last year, dont act like he magically became eligible for the tournament. Their team was barely a bubble team with him in the lineup all season.

 

[clonefreek]

What does steve prohm do well? I want a non-prohm hater to answer that. And before you saying recruiting remember this, 2016 Jakolby Long, Top ranked player in our recruiting class top 100 player, Bust. Cam Lard Grade issues, year and a half wait for him. Malou, Never showed. DJackson, great Utility guy and backup PG. And Solo, Great Utility guy. So that class was meh. 2017, Wiggington Top Tier Talent, great freshman year, the last year prohm takes him out of the lineup. Terrence Lewis top 100 player, Bust. 2018, Great class a lot of talent there, THT drafted, Haliburton and is potential lottery pick. Conditt work in progress. and Zion, so far a bust. but 2019. 2 transfer immediately, Grill plays some but hasnt shown anything against tier 1 teams. and tre jackson is in the same boat. I get they are freshman so ill wait and see. We are in this boat because his first couple of recruiting classes were bad. So what good is a top 15 recruiting class when 2 of them are projects and 2 leave early? Doesnt do a lot when you cant replace them with another draft pick the next year.

 

[Cat Stevens]

What does steve prohm do well? I want a non-prohm hater to answer that. And before you saying recruiting remember this, 2016 Jakolby Long, Top ranked player in our recruiting class top 100 player, Bust. Cam Lard Grade issues, year and a half wait for him. Malou, Never showed. DJackson, great Utility guy and backup PG. And Solo, Great Utility guy. So that class was meh. 2017, Wiggington Top Tier Talent, great freshman year, the last year prohm takes him out of the lineup. Terrence Lewis top 100 player, Bust. 2018, Great class a lot of talent there, THT drafted, Haliburton and is potential lottery pick. Conditt work in progress. and Zion, so far a bust. but 2019. 2 transfer immediately, Grill plays some but hasnt shown anything against tier 1 teams. and tre jackson is in the same boat. I get they are freshman so ill wait and see. We are in this boat because his first couple of recruiting classes were bad. So what good is a top 15 recruiting class when 2 of them are projects and 2 leave early? Doesnt do a lot when you cant replace them with another draft pick the next year.

If you’re not going to be honest, there is no sense in talking to you.

 

[clonefreek]

If you’re not going to be honest, there is no sense in talking to you.

What is wrong about my statement?

 

[Sigmapolis]

I can't golf to save my life if that matters. I understand what you are saying. Just pointing out the absurd by being absurd only using Iowa as the mark. Nothing more......nothing less. Just Iowa. I have no problem with CMC and couldn't care less if he loses to Iowa the next couple of years so long as the October and November excitement continues. And even then.....he has built up enough currency to have a few off seasons. Only time I have seriously questioned him is why we threw it 62 times against OSU. As for CSP.....as long as these...........

come every so often I could give a rip what happens in December. Oh, it's nice to build up that non-con resume......but I'm not going to come on here and soil my underwear because we stunk it up for a few hours in December. Because like I said about CMC, with me, CSP has built enough currency to have a few off games. Yes, even against Iowa, which coach Prohm and the guys did. That was bad. Now CSP starts pulling a GMAC.....................................?

I would be concerned if he missed the NCAA tournament this year.

I would probably be in the "time to make a change" camp if next year, too.

Not going to get ahead of myself, though -- that would be 18 months from now.

What does steve prohm do well? I want a non-prohm hater to answer that. And before you saying recruiting remember this, 2016 Jakolby Long, Top ranked player in our recruiting class top 100 player, Bust. Cam Lard Grade issues, year and a half wait for him. Malou, Never showed. DJackson, great Utility guy and backup PG. And Solo, Great Utility guy. So that class was meh. 2017, Wiggington Top Tier Talent, great freshman year, the last year prohm takes him out of the lineup. Terrence Lewis top 100 player, Bust. 2018, Great class a lot of talent there, THT drafted, Haliburton and is potential lottery pick. Conditt work in progress. and Zion, so far a bust. but 2019. 2 transfer immediately, Grill plays some but hasnt shown anything against tier 1 teams. and tre jackson is in the same boat. I get they are freshman so ill wait and see. We are in this boat because his first couple of recruiting classes were bad. So what good is a top 15 recruiting class when 2 of them are projects and 2 leave early? Doesnt do a lot when you cant replace them with another draft pick the next year.

Wigginton -- I was on the record here that Wigginton should have been starting over THT at the end of last season. However, Wigginton played 477 minutes in the Big 12 last year, and THT played 461. I subjectively remember Wigginton being the one in the game at the end far more often, too. The idea that Prohm "took him out of the lineup" when he was fourth in minutes in the Big 12 is absurd. If that is how you remember it, then look at the seasonal box score. What a fatuous point to say Wigginton was benched somehow.

Shayok was up there with Royce White and DeAndre Kane as one of our best transfers of all-time. Odd that you left him out going through your list.

Jacobson is a solid guy -- limited in ways, but he can be very good.

What does Prohm do well...?



The 2019 team was the best of our 2011-2019 run according to the above. Both the 2019 and 2017 teams have higher ratings than the Fred teams.

Prohm maintained or even improved the level of offensive efficiency from the Hoiberg era and kept/improved on the defensive efficiencies, as well.

I know you are going to say back that, "If they were so good, why didn't they win?" My response is (1.) yes, they did, just not as much at Hilton and (2.) wins and losses, a simple binary like that, are actually a relatively poor estimate of the quality of a team and a poor predictor of its future success compared to a more nuanced approach using point differentials. You should account for those. And (3.) our strength of schedule under the Prohm era is slightly higher than it was in the Hoiberg era...



...so you should make some reasonable adjustment for that.

Winning 23 in 2018 was harder than winning 23 in 2012.

In essence, the Hoiberg era was "luckier" -- they won a lot of close games. History says that teams tend to regress to the mean of 50-50 on close games, that being "clutch" is mostly a myth. The Prohm teams were not as lucky, and especially the 2016 team losing a ton of close Big 12 games. The 2019 team suffered slightly from that.

The guy has proven that he can do it -- he won the Big 12 tournament with a team consisting entirely of his guys. Not many high-major coaches have won their conference tournament, much less twice (even if the first was mostly Hoiberg recruits, though important rotation guys on that team like Jackson, NWB, Bowie, and Young were recruited by Prohm to supplement the upperclassmen). He just has not gotten on the lucky run in March to quiet the natives, and losing Wigginton and/or Horton-Tucker, who would have been the centerpiece of the offense and the star this season, really hurt and screwed up the plan.

I am sure he planned on having at least one of them, and Bolton is just not an adequate replacement for either of them right now.

This...

Haliburton
Bolton
Nixon
Horton-Tucker
Conditt

...would be fun.

 

[clonefreek]

I would be concerned if he missed the NCAA tournament this year.

I would probably be in the "time to make a change" camp if next year, too.

Not going to get ahead of myself, though -- that would be 18 months from now.



Wigginton -- I was on the record here that Wigginton should have been starting over THT at the end of last season. However, Wigginton played 477 minutes in the Big 12 last year, and THT played 461. I subjectively remember Wigginton being the one in the game at the end far more often, too. The idea that Prohm "took him out of the lineup" when he was fourth in minutes in the Big 12 is absurd. If that is how you remember it, then look at the seasonal box score. What a fatuous point to say Wigginton was benched somehow.

Shayok was up there with Royce White and DeAndre Kane as one of our best transfers of all-time. Odd that you left him out going through your list.

Jacobson is a solid guy -- limited in ways, but he can be very good.

What does Prohm do well...?

View attachment 69273

The 2019 team was the best of our 2011-2019 run according to the above. Both the 2019 and 2017 teams have higher ratings than the Fred teams.

Prohm maintained or even improved the level of offensive efficiency from the Hoiberg era and kept/improved on the defensive efficiencies, as well.

I know you are going to say back that, "If they were so good, why didn't they win?" My response is (1.) yes, they did, just not as much at Hilton and (2.) wins and losses, a simple binary like that, are actually a relatively poor estimate of the quality of a team and a poor predictor of its future success compared to a more nuanced approach using point differentials. You should account for those. And (3.) our strength of schedule under the Prohm era is slightly higher than it was in the Hoiberg era...

View attachment 69274

...so you should make some reasonable adjustment for that.

Winning 23 in 2018 was harder than winning 23 in 2012.

In essence, the Hoiberg era was "luckier" -- they won a lot of close games. History says that teams tend to regress to the mean of 50-50 on close games, that being "clutch" is mostly a myth. The Prohm teams were not as lucky, and especially the 2016 team losing a ton of close Big 12 games. The 2019 team suffered slightly from that.

The guy has proven that he can do it -- he won the Big 12 tournament with a team consisting entirely of his guys. Not many high-major coaches have won their conference tournament, much less twice (even if the first was mostly Hoiberg recruits, though important rotation guys on that team like Jackson, NWB, Bowie, and Young were recruited by Prohm to supplement the upperclassmen). He just has not gotten on the lucky run in March to quiet the natives, and losing Wigginton and/or Horton-Tucker, who would have been the centerpiece of the offense and the star this season, really hurt and screwed up the plan.

I am sure he planned on having at least one of them, and Bolton is just not an adequate replacement for either of them right now.

This...

Haliburton
Bolton
Nixon
Horton-Tucker
Conditt

...would be fun.

Sorry I missed Jacobson and Shayok because they were not listed on the ESPN recruiting classes, none of the transfers were.
Benched is a term referencing the fact he didnt start.
The offense has been awful to watch the last 2 years. I dont care how many pts they average. Standing around for 25 seconds of the shot clock and jacking up an NBA three is stupid. And we do that late in close games. Where are the plays?

Since you like doing research go back and find me how many games in the prohm era have we lost by 1-5 pts but were leading with less than 2 minutes left and how many games we have come back from a 2-3 pts deficit in the last 2 minutes of a game.